Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: biblioc on May 31, 2023, 05:39:04 PM
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If a Catholic dies in Mortal sin and Goes to Hell - does he have Faith?
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Lucifer believed all that God revealed but had no charity, at all.
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God bestows faith, so if a man dies in mortal sin, although he may have knowledge and even understanding , there can be no Faith as the man was separated from God by his sin.
Faith is a gift from God.
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If a Catholic dies in Mortal sin and Goes to Hell - does he have Faith?
No, because now that he sees Eternity for himself, there is no more need for faith. Faith is believing what we can't see. The same holds true for those who are saved. Faith is no longer necessary because he is in eternity and sees.
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Are there any statements by Saint Thomas Aquinas or Saint Augustine of Hippo on this matter? That is, that if a "Catholic" died in Mortal Sin - would he have Faith in Hell or does is that Faith extinguished? Please any docuмentation by the Church not opinion, thanks again.
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No, because now that he sees Eternity for himself, there is no more need for faith. Faith is believing what we can't see. The same holds true for those who are saved. Faith is no longer necessary because he is in eternity and sees.
This is where I would lean. We know this for sure of those who enter the Beatific Vision, that there's no longer a need for faith as they see God face to face. As for the damned, while they do not see God, they also know the full truth about God and there's no more need for faith there either.
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Ladisalus I appreciate your comments; however I am trying to understand what the Church teaches in this matter at hand? I agree that Charity kills mortal sin and there is No hope of heaven in hell. But does that mean by the Church teaching that one loses Faith such as a Catholic? For the question could be raised about those that never had the faith, do they believe or have faith? And what about the Demons in hell? Thanks a million!
The opinion of St. Thomas:
Article 2. Whether in the demons there is faith?
Objection 1. It would seem that the demons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm) have no faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm). For Augustine (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm) says (De Praedest. Sanct. v) that "faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) depends on the believer's will": and this is a good (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm) will, since by it man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) wishes to believe (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm) in God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm). Since then no deliberate will of the demons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm) is good (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm), as stated above (I:64:2 ad 5 (https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1064.htm#article2)), it seems that in the demons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm) there is no faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm).
Objection 2. Further, faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) is a gift (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm) of Divine grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm), according to Ephesians 2:8 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/eph002.htm#verse8): "By grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) you are saved through faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) . . . for it is the gift (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm) of God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm)." Now, according to a gloss (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06586a.htm) on Hosea 3:1 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/hos003.htm#verse1), "They look to strange gods, and love the husks of the grapes," the demons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm) lost their gifts (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm) of grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) by sinning (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm). Therefore faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) did not remain in the demons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm) after they sinned (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm).
Objection 3. Further, unbelief would seem to be graver than other sins (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), as Augustine (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm) observes (Tract. lxxxix in Joan.) on John 15:22 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/joh015.htm#verse22), "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm): but now they have no excuse for their sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm)." Now the sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) of unbelief is in some men. Consequently, if the demons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm) have faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm), some men would be guilty of a sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) graver than that of the demons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm), which seems unreasonable. Therefore in the demons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm) there is no faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm).
On the contrary, It is written (James 2:19 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/jam002.htm#verse19)): "The devils (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm) . . . believe (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm) and tremble."
I answer that, As stated above (II-II:1:4 (https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3001.htm#article4); II-II:2:1 (https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3002.htm#article1)), the believer's intellect (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08066a.htm) assents to that which he believes (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm), not because he sees it either in itself, or by resolving it to first self-evident principles, but because his will commands his intellect (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08066a.htm) to assent. Now, that the will (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15624a.htm) moves the intellect (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08066a.htm) to assent, may be due to two causes (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm). First, through the will (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15624a.htm) being directed to the good (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm), and in this way, to believe (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm) is a praiseworthy action. Secondly, because the intellect (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08066a.htm) is convinced that it ought to believe (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm) what is said, though that conviction is not based on objective evidence. Thus if a prophet (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12477a.htm), while preaching the word of God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), were to foretell something, and were to give a sign, by raising a dead person (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm) to life, the intellect (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08066a.htm) of a witness would be convinced so as to recognize clearly that God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), Who lieth not, was speaking, although the thing itself foretold would not be evident in itself, and consequently the essence (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05543b.htm) of faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) would not be removed.
Accordingly we must say that faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) is commended in the first sense in the faithful of Christ: and in this way faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) is not in the demons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm), but only in the second way, for they see many evident signs, whereby they recognize that the teaching of the Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) is from God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), although they do not see the things themselves that the Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) teaches, for instance that there are three Persons in God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), and so forth.
Reply to Objection 1. The demons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm) are, in a way, compelled to believe (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm), by the evidence of signs, and so their will deserves no praise for their belief (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm).
Reply to Objection 2. Faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm), which is a gift (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm) of grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm), inclines man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) to believe (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm), by giving him a certain affection for the good (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm), even when that faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) is lifeless. Consequently the faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) which the demons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm) have, is not a gift (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm) of grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm). Rather are they compelled to believe (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm) through their natural (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm) intellectual (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08066a.htm) acuмen.
Reply to Objection 3. The very fact that the signs of faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) are so evident, that the demons (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm) are compelled to believe (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm), is displeasing to them, so that their malice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07149b.htm) is by no means diminished by their belief (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm).
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3005.htm
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Ladisalus I appreciate your comments; however I am trying to understand what the Church teaches in this matter at hand? I agree that Charity kills mortal sin and there is No hope of heaven in hell. But does that mean by the Church teaching that one loses Faith such as a Catholic? For the question could be raised about those that never had the faith, do they believe or have faith? And what about the Demons in hell? Thanks a million!
I know of no Church teaching on the subject. It's a matter of speculative theology.
St. Thomas above is not referring to the supernatural virtue of faith as we know it, but defines the "faith" of demons as follows ...
Consequently the faith which the demons have, is not a gift of grace. Rather are they compelled to believe through their natural intellectual acuмen.
Supernatural faith is in fact a gift of grace and is not a product of "natural intellectual acuмen". St. Thomas is referring to the natural analogue of supernatural faith which is simply to believe something based on the authority of the one commanding it. They are basically forced to believe what God says because their reason tells them that God is perfectly true and cannot lie, etc.
But this is distinct from the supernatural virtue of faith, which is in fact a gift of grace and not made under compulsion.
St. Thomas himself defines divine supernatural faith, as per the Catholic Encyclopedia here ...
The foregoing analyses will enable us to define an act of Divine supernatural faith as "the act of the intellect assenting to a Divine truth owing to the movement of the will, which is itself moved by the grace of God" (St. Thomas, II-II, Q. iv, a. 2).
So it's a grace from God with which the will freely cooperates. Notice that St. Thomas defines the diabolical "faith" (different from the divine supernatural faith) as a compulsion (not free will) of the intellect (with the will not cooperating) and "natural" (vs. supernatural). So the diabolical "faith" differs from the divine supernatural faith in these 3 essential ways.
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My understanding has always been that faith (and hope) are confined to this life, and that neither one exists in eternity (whether heaven or hell), because it's no longer needed.
As to faith, you no longer must believe, because you know.
And you no longer have hope, because you are either in heaven and don't need it anymore, or you are in hell and hope wouldn't do you any good even if you had it.