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Author Topic: 61 year sede-vacantism has already become proximately heretical (leads to EVism)  (Read 7715 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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  • No, it wouldn't, first of all, because they are unable to transmit the apostolic mission; and secondly, this is not a refutation of a heresy at all. Have you read St. Alphonsus' "Refutation of All Heresies". According to Sacred Theology, there is a specific way, or at any rate, many specific ways, to refute each and every heresy, whether it is Monophysitism, Monothelitism, Arianism, Nestorianism, Gallicanism etc.

    So how will you refute, from some clear premise, the heresy of Old Catholicism, and prove and establish that it is heretical to hold? Just as an e.g. here is one of the ways in His Holiness Pope Bl. Pius IX, refuted it, from the Indefectibility and Universality of the Church: "Incredibly, they boldly affirm that the Roman Pontiff and all the bishops, the priests and the people conjoined with him in the unity of faith and communion fell into heresy when they approved and professed the definitions of the Ecuмenical Vatican Council. Therefore they deny also the indefectibility of the Church and blasphemously declare that it has perished throughout the world and that its visible Head and the bishops have erred. They assert the necessity of restoring a legitimate episcopacy in the person of their pseudo-bishop, who has entered not by the gate but from elsewhere like a thief or robber and calls the damnation of Christ upon his head ...Moved by your voices and your false opinions, She asked of God that He announce to Her the length of Her days and She found that God said ‘Behold I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world.’ Here you will say: He spoke about us; we are as we will be until the end of the world. Christ Himself is asked; He says ‘and this gospel will be preached in the whole world, in testimony to all nations, and then will come the end.’ Therefore the Church will be among all nations until the end of the world. Let heretics perish as they are, and let them find that they become what they are not.”[8] https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9etsimu.htm

    Of course they were wrong, and of course it did continue in the Popes and their Successors.

    No, it wouldn't continue either way. That is heretical to say. If it is even possible that Vatican I was not a legitimate Council, then it would follow that Papal Infallibility is not a dogma known with certainty of faith. That's why theologians explain such things are dogmatic facts. Similarly, we know a vacancy going back to 1870 is heretical.

    Partially agreed. The SSPX holds that after Summorum Pontificuм in 2007, which corrected an injustice and admitted that all Priests were free to offer the Traditional Mass; after Universae Ecclesiae some 4 years later, and some Roman Theologians admitting that the Council is non-infallible, and that certain points can be respectfully questioned etc more recently, there is no reason for any Traditional Bishop not to go to Rome, receive recognition from the Pope, and continue a Traditional Apostolate in fully normal relations with Rome. But that's the basis of the SSPX-Resistance dispute and so, if you'd like to discuss it, we can discuss it in that sub-forum.

    God Bless.
    First, check out this posting by Sean, a thorough theological study which he introduced by saying, "from the old SSPX against claims by the FSSP that episcopal consecration is reserved to the pope":  https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/61-year-sede-vacantism-has-already-become-proximately-heretical-(leads-to-evism)/msg680746/#msg680746

    Here's the first paragraph:

    Quote
    History confirms that the state of necessity extended not only the duties of bishops, but also their power of jurisdiction. Dom Grea whose attachment to the pope is above all suspicion testifies (De l’Eglise et de sa divine consitution, vol. I) that not only at the beginning of Christianity did the "necessity of the Church and the Gospel" demand that the power of the episcopal order be exercised in all its fullness without jurisdictional limitations, but that in successive ages extraordinary circuмstances required" even more exceptional and more extraordinary manifestations" of episcopal power (ibid., p.218) in order "to apply a remedy to the current necessity of the Christian people" (ibid. and ƒƒ.), for whom there was no hope of aid on the part of the legitimate pastors nor from the Pope. In such circuмstances, in which the common good of the Church is also at stake, the jurisdictional limitations vanish and "that which is universal" in episcopal power "comes directly to the aid of souls" (ibid., p.218):
    You want to argue that the possibility of the extinguishment of apostolic succession is not an "extraordinary circuмstance[] requir[ing] even more exceptional and extraordinary manifestations of episcopal power," go ahead. I think you'd be very foolish to argue that however.

    I was not arguing for the Old Catholics and their claim of heresy; God forbid! Here was my point: if they were right - i.e., making a claim like Sede and other Trads claims about V2 and the subsequent popes regarding Pius IX and his successors - then it would be an extraordinary circuмstance calling for extraordinary supplied jurisdiction. This is an argument that has merit, and many Sede bishops lay claim to it. It seems to me to be supported by the article I cited.

    So when you say, the Old Catholics "are unable to transmit the apostolic mission," you're simply begging the question, and relying upon your assumption. Episcopal jurisdiction - and hence apostolic mission - can be supplied apart from the pope in extraordinary circuмstances - if I'm reading the article right.

    The nature, structure and the form of the Church will continue until the end of time, and it is a structure with the pope at the top. That divine constitution can never be changed; there can be no alteration in this divine constitution of the Church. This is the perpetuity of the primacy in the Church's essence and constitution. That a pope be physically sitting on the seat at all times is of course false, as it hasn't been the case. That a pope be necessary to create bishops with true jurisdiction - who are capable of carrying on the apostolic mission - is also false, as that hasn't been the case as witnessed by the past.

    I concede that the language of Pius IX in that encyclical supports your view. However, he did not elaborate on it and explain how that was so; he was not doing a deep theological discourse or study on that issue. It was a side comment on the schism of the Old Catholics. But it is the best thing I've seen supporting your position.

    However, as I said above, there are solid reasons for denying your position that a pope consecrating bishops is necessary for the endurance of the apostolic mission.

    God bless,

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Quote
    Do you agree that the pope receives his jurisdiction directly from Our Lord?


    Yes.

    Quote
    If so why do you believe that Apostolic mission is lost when there are no ordinaries?

    I've explained that; and I believe the CE explains it in these words: This Apostolic succession must be both material and formal; the material consisting in the actual succession in the Church, through a series of persons from the Apostolic age to the present; the formal adding the element of authority in the transmission of power. It consists in the legitimate transmission of the ministerial power conferred by Christ upon His Apostles. No one can give a power which he does not possess. Hence in tracing the mission of the Church back to the Apostles, no lacuna can be allowed, no new mission can arise; but the mission conferred by Christ must pass from generation to generation through an uninterrupted lawful succession ... Any break in this succession destroys Apostolicity, because the break means the beginning of a new series which is not Apostolic. "How shall they preach unless they be sent?" (Romans 10:15). An authoritative mission to teach is absolutely necessary, a man-given mission is not authoritative. Hence any concept of Apostolicity that excludes authoritative union with the Apostolic mission robs the ministry of its Divine character ... Regarding the Greek Church, it is sufficient to note that it lost apostolic succession by withdrawing from the jurisdiction of the lawful successors of St. Peter in the See of Rome. The same is to be said of the Anglican claims to continuity ... jurisdiction is essential to the Apostolicity of mission."

    Since the power of jurisdiction is essential to the Apostolic Mission, the Church can never be reduced to non-Ordinaries alone.

    Quote
    Please refer back to my scenario and explain why you think the Church has defected in that case.

    "Scenario: The world is engulfed in a nuclear World War III in which the entire population of the earth is wiped out save for the pope, a visiting auxiliary bishop, and 10 priests along with 300,000 faithful in and around Rome.  The next day the pope dies from his wounds."

    Where is God and His Providence in the scenario? I deny God will allow it to happen; the Pope will appoint at least some Bishops and, as for the Clergy (are the incardinated in Rome? it's not clear in the scenario), if there were none incardinated, God will also ensure the Pope incardinates some before he dies; because God cannot fail in His Promises to His Church. Else, the Church will defect.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    That's his opinion

    The indefectibility of the Roman Church is not an opinion; its denial was described as manifest heresy by a Pope Sixtus IV. You can read your favorite Msgr. Fenton of that, who absolutely would never have agreed, and did not agree - just like his friend Fr. Connell, who said plainly in the AER, in 1965, that it is certain Pope Paul VI was the Pope - with sede-vacantism, though he was aware of the problems being caused at Vatican II by the liberals :Actually the infallibility of the Roman Church is much more than a mere theological opinion. The proposition that "the Church of the city of Rome can fall into error" is one of the theses of Peter de Osma, formally condemned by Pope Sixtus IV as erroneous and as containing manifest heresy.[37]" https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=608 Let the text of Cardinal Franzelin be posted and we can examine it. Cardinals are an ecclesiastical creation. It is different from all the Roman Clergy considered together. The Roman Clergy are collectively indefectible. "St. Robert explained this teaching by saying that the Roman clergy and the Roman laity, as a corporate unit, could never fall away from the faith.[35] The Roman Church, as an individual local institution, can never fall away from the faith. Manifestly the same guarantee is given to no other local Church."

    Quote
    We could hypothetically see the entire Curia and Roman clergy

    Cardinals, yes. Roman Clergy, no. See above. God's Providence would preserve at least some. These are like the question, "we could hypothetically see a non-Christian in good faith, die without becoming a Christian. God's Providence may fail in that case, right?" Wrong.

    Quote
    Time is not relevant to the scenario.

    It's like saying, "If I can hold my breath underwater for 30 seconds, I can also do so for 30 minutes". Don't try it, but no you can't. In an interregnum, the Church is in a state where all authority formerly granted is retained (this is also explained by Cardinal Franzelin; Cardinals don't cease to be Cardinals when the Pope dies. Ordinaries don't cease to be Ordinaries when the Pope dies. But no new Cardinals and no new Ordinaries can be appointed). Defection occurs when all Ordinaries die. If God wanted to prove SVism was still possible, He would have extended the lives and dates of appointment or whatever, into the Pope Pius XII era, or otherwise ensured many such still remain alive.

    Quote from: Decem Rationis
    Episcopal jurisdiction - and hence apostolic mission - can be supplied apart from the pope in extraordinary circuмstances - if I'm reading the article right.

    I don't know if you're reading the article right; because not even the sede bishops claim to have apostolic mission. And the SSPX Bishops certainly didn't claim to have it before recently. Jurisdiction may be supplied for individual acts in particular case. That is a tacit and transient delegation operative by law itself. It is not the same as habitual jurisdiction, or having a permanent apostolic mission from the Church. For e.g. jurisdiction may be supplied to even an Orthodox Priest, in danger of death, absolving a Catholic penitent. Yet, he has no mission from the Church. The sede bishops do claim supplied jurisdiction; but not an Apostolic Mission. The two are not identical.

    Quote
    I concede that the language of Pius IX in that encyclical supports your view. However, he did not elaborate on it and explain how that was so; he was not doing a deep theological discourse or study on that issue. It was a side comment on the schism of the Old Catholics. But it is the best thing I've seen supporting your position.

    Ok. And what do you think of Fr. Gueranger's explanation of Apostolic Mission, as explained as Peter and his Successors, from whom all episcopal authority derives, handing to the Bishops a share in the power of the keys, through granting them a mission? Please reread it and get back to me. You're right that Pope Bl. Pius IX wasn't giving a detailed theological explanation of the subject, but the Pope did praise Dom Gueranger who did.

    God Bless.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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  • So you disagree with Van Noort that the Church could be reduced to the pope with the clergy and faithful joined to him in Rome?  I personally think that Msgr Fenton implied the same when he wrote his article about the indefectibility of the Roman See.  No other see is protected and therefore they are all contingent and can all be lost even all at once.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Cardinals, yes. Roman Clergy, no. See above. God's Providence would preserve at least some. 

    That's just your opinion.  What's key is that the theologians who posited such scenarios did not consider the possibility to be inimical with the Perpetual Succession.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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  • The clergy in my scenario are attached to Rome either through receiving first tonsure from the pope or having been incardinated by him.  And there is the bishop as well.  But the only ordinary is the pope because all other sees are completely wiped out with no survivors whatsoever.  You assert that God will not allow it to happen with little or no proof. By any legal measure, the institution remains in such a scenario so the burden of proof is on you to show why the Church would defect whereas a human institution would survive.


    Offline Paul FHC

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  • There is no doubt that the Church of Vatican 2 has taught errors. But that these errors were taught in a manner so as to engage infallibility, that remains to be seen.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • There is no doubt that the Church of Vatican 2 has taught errors. But that these errors were taught in a manner so as to engage infallibility, that remains to be seen.

    But that's the wrong consideration.  We are not talking about an isolated error here or there, but a new system of theology (rooted in a non-Catholic anti-Tridentine ecclesiology) that has persisted for over 60 years in the putative Magisterium.  There's a broader consideration of the indefectibility and broader inerrancy of the Magisterium viewed as a whole ... not to mention the Universal Discipline of the Church.  It's gone so far that the Conciliar Church represents an entirely new religion from that of Traditinal Catholicism.  That kind of deviation from the Church's mission is not possible and is tantamount to a defection of the Church.

    Catholic Encyclopedia on the Church's indefectibility:
    Quote
    Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed. It is clear, too, that could the Church suffer substantial change, it would no longer be an instrument capable of accomplishing the work for which God called it in to being. He established it that it might be to all men the school of holiness. This it would cease to be if ever it could set up a false and corrupt moral standard. He established it to proclaim His revelation to the world, and charged it to warn all men that unless they accepted that message they must perish everlastingly.

    Catholic Encyclopedia on the Church's visibility:
    Quote
    In asserting that the Church of Christ is visible, we signify, first, that as a society it will at all times be conspicuous and public, and second, that it will ever be recognizable among other bodies as the Church of Christ. These two aspects of visibility are termed respectively "material" and "formal" visibility by Catholic theologians. The material visibility of the Church involves no more than that it must ever be a public, not a private profession; a society manifest to the world, not a body whose members are bound by some secret tie. Formal visibility is more than this. It implies that in all ages the true Church of Christ will be easily recognizable for that which it is, viz. as the Divine society of the Son of God, the means of salvation offered by God to men; that it possesses certain attributes which so evidently postulate a Divine origin that all who see it must know it comes from God.

    Does the Conciliar establishment maintain the formal visibility of being the One True Church?

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • You see, the non-infallibilists pretend that what we're dealing with here is nothing more than a doctrinal mistake in a Papal Encyclical.  Clearly, if that's all we were talking about, an isolated mistake, we would not even be having this discussion, and there would be no Traditional movement.  You would still consider there to be unity of faith and moral principles in the Church ... while various members of the Church would respectfully question the mistaken teaching ... from within the visible structures of the Church (which would remain essentially intact).  But the mere fact that Traditional Catholics feel the need to break from this institution, that they cannot co-exist with it, suggests that the Conciliar establishment is something other than the Catholic Church that is substantially the same as what has gone before.


    Offline Meg

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  • There is no doubt that the Church of Vatican 2 has taught errors. But that these errors were taught in a manner so as to engage infallibility, that remains to be seen.

    You mention the Church of Vatican 2, which is a good way to describe the conciliar church. Archbishop Lefebvre said that the Church is occupied by a Modernist sect. So it's difficult to know about the errors and infallibility, since the Catholic Church is occupied currently. That doesn't mean that some of the Church isn't still present and alive in Rome, even if only in a small capacity.

    Bp. Tissier de Mallerais once described it as thus: he said (and I paraphrase) that the conciliar church acts as a parasite, which sucks out and absorbs the life from the True Church, and in doing this, it remains alive. The host (the true Catholic Church) still have to be alive in order for the parasite to exist off the host. In as much as the parasite absorbs life from the True Church, there still exists some of the True Church even in the conciliar church. Just my over-simplification of Bp. de Mallerais, based on his study of +ABL.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Yeti

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  • The proposition that "the Church of the city of Rome can fall into error" is one of the theses of Peter de Osma, formally condemned by Pope Sixtus IV as erroneous and as containing manifest heresy.[37]" https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=608
    Thank you very much for that link. I am reading through the article now, and plan to bookmark it for later examination.
    .
    Although I must say there are several things in there that seem contradictory. For example:
    .
    Although some theologians, like Suarez and, in our own time Mazzella and Manzoni, hold it as probable that the material city of Rome will be protected by God's providence and will never be completely destroyed,[27] most of the others hold that this destruction is a possibility. They maintain, however, that the destruction of the buildings and even the complete uninhabitability of the city itself would in no way necessitate the destruction of the Roman local Church. Older writers like St. Robert Bellarmine were convinced that at one time the actual city of Rome was entirely without inhabitants, while the local Church, with its clergy and its bishop, continued to live.
    .
    If the city is uninhabitable, then how do the pope and his clergy live in it?
    .
    From time to time heretics have pointed to the seventeenth and the eighteenth chapters of the Apocalypse as indication that ultimately there would be no followers of Christ within the city of Rome. St. Robert admitted such a possibility at the end of the world,
    .
    Wait, if that's possible, then what happened to the pope and the Roman clergy? Are they not followers of Christ?
    .
    An interesting article, but a little hard to follow.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Second Syllogism: The Theological Proof from the fact that Ordinary Jurisdiction is required for formal Apostolic Sucession:

    Major: Ordinary Jurisdiction is required for Apostolic Succession.
    Minor: The Catholic Church cannot lose Her Apostolic Succession.
    Conclusion: Therefore, the Catholic Church cannot lose Ordinary Juridiction.
    Corollary: And therefore it is demonstrated Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction will always exist in the Roman Catholic Church.

    Ergo, Quod Erat Demonstrandum. Q.E.D.



    Bumped for Liarslaus. Liarslaus of course conveniently ignored answering this; because it destroys his heretical Apostolicity-Dogma denying heresies and schismatic mentalty.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • I'll give you a pass since perhaps you hadn't studied formal logic yet.  But your Minor should be the Major (and vice versa).

    Now, your point "Ordinary Jurisdiction is required for Apostolic Succession".  This has been discussed over and over again, but you mindlessly keep repeating this as if it were de fide.  During times of vacancies in the Holy See, the normal mode in which jurisdiction is transmitted is suspended in favor of Christ directly supplying jurisdiction to the Church.  So the ordinary mode of ordinary jurisdiction is no longer there, but the Church does not thereby lose Apostolic succession.  Ordinary Jurisdiction can be suspended in a state of potency for a time without there being loss of Apostolic succession.

    So you need to reformulate your proposition, because, as it reads, you think that you are proving that Apostolic Succession has ceased at any papal interregnum.

    This is rather pathetic, where you pack your unproven assumptions into a little syllogism and therefore claim "QED".  Get back to us after you've taken a few years of theology at the seminary.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Bumped for Liarslaus. Liarslaus of course conveniently ignored answering this; because it destroys his heretical Apostolicity-Dogma denying heresies and schismatic mentalty.

    Your "Major" has been refuted about a dozen times here by the sedevacantists using citations from various theologians.  But evidently you're too stupid or bad-willed to realize this.  So you resort to the pathetic practice of reiterating your opinion over and over again with increasing font sizes.

    When you first started your thread, I actually had been in agreement with your argument (well, a properly-formulated version of it anyway).  Sedeprivationism, which is what I hold, does not labor under this difficulty, however ... so it was not a chief concern for me.  But then the sedevacantists made their arguments and cited theological sources which thoroughly debunked your argument.

    You lost this argument to the SVs, but refuse to admit it.  Now, certainly, you can hold it as your opinion, that the Apostolic Succession would cease after a certain amount of time (say, due to the Curia or Roman clergy going defunct), but it's merely an opinion.  But as this syllogism is formulated, you have to claim that Apostolic Succession ceases at any papal-interregnum.  Even after all the arguments made against your position should have caused you to take this syllogism back to the drawing board and revise it (refine it) to make it solid logically ... instead, you just embarrass yourself by re-posting it without modification.

    You just have an ax to grind against me because I've goaded your conscience with the realization that you are in schism for adhering to the SSPX when your theological position is perfectly compatible with an organization like FSSP, which is in fact in full communion with the putative hierarchy.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Oh please. What is your explanation of the Vatican I text on Shepherds and Teachers? You can't answer it so you didn't.

    Major Premise: Vatican I says there will be Shepherds and Teachers in Christ's Church until the end of time.
    Minor Premise: Shepherds and Teachers (Pastores et Doctores in Latin) refer to Bishops with Teaching Office and Jurisdiction.
    Conclusion: Therefore, there will be Bishops with Teaching Office and Jurisdiction in the Church, until the end of time.

    You didn't cite any source at all for your claim that there need not be Shepherds and Teachers in Christ's Church until time's end.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Oh please. What is your explanation of the Vatican I text on Shepherds and Teachers? You can't answer it so you didn't.

    Major Premise: Vatican I says there will be Shepherds and Teachers in Christ's Church until the end of time.

    :facepalm:  This is what we find when dealing with someone of bad will.  This has been repeatedly addressed by the sedevacantists ... over and over and over again.

    Shepherds and Teachers do not cease during any given papal interregnum, despite the fact that the ordinary mode in which Christ communicates jurisdiction to the Church has ceased.  In the case of a papal vacancy, this is done directly by Christ.  During the reign of an anti-Pope, this happens through color of title.  It's this color of title teaching by theologians which made me conclude that sedevacantism does not labor under the difficulty (which sedeprivationism avoids).  Actually, the color of title position savors of sedeprivationism in many ways.

    Since I'm a sedeprivationist, none of your argument have any direct bearing on my position anyway.  I just came to the conclusion that the SVs have refuted your arguments against them and have sided with them on this issue.