Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: 61 year sede-vacantism has already become proximately heretical (leads to EVism)  (Read 7681 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nishant Xavier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2873
  • Reputation: +1893/-1750
  • Gender: Male
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Your Triumph Come!
As was briefly discussed here, 61 year SVism leads to what could be called "ecclesia-vacantism", and EVism is heretical. Therefore, if not heretical itself, the thesis that the See of Peter has been vacant for 61 years, is at least proximate to heresy. Here's a recap of the syllogism.

Major: Only a Pope can appoint Bishops to sees/dioceses. 
Minor: SVism says there has been no Pope for 61 years.  
Conclusion: Therefore, no diocesan Bishop has been appointed for 61 years. 

A closer look at http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/sordb2.html reveals that the Corollary has to be changed to,

Corollary: There are no diocesan Bishops appointed by any Pope, per 61 year SVism.

Why? Because that single Bishop, Archbishop Emeritus Bernardino, was only consecrated a Titular in 1958, but appointed only in 1960. Thus, he would have been appointed by, according to sedes, "the manifestly heretical antipope (MHA) John XXIII".

From: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpinc.html Abp. Benardino only became an Ordinary in December 1960.

27 Apr 195842.5Ordained BishopTitular Bishop of Prusias ad Hypium
10 Dec 196045.2AppointedBishop of TemucoChile

How will sede-vacantists evade the conclusion that straight sedevacantism, now in 2019, manifestly leads to EVism and is therefore heretical? A careful reflection shows plainly and without any doubt to any believing Catholic that it is not possible for there to be no Popes indefinitely - otherwise even a 100 or a 1000 year vacancy is possible, and the See could have been vacant since the 11th century or so, like Ibranyi believes. So what is the "term limit" on an interregnum? Plainly that all Bishops appointed to a diocese or an office by the last Pope could not have died off before the new Pope is elected. Also, according to theologians, these Ordinaries have to pass judgment, that the See is declared vacant, before it becomes binding on the Church, and before the process to elect a new Pope.

So how can this be done? Why didn't sedevacantists write to the earlier Ordinaries and ask them to convene in Council before this happened? You surely had decades to do so, so why didn't you all seize the opportunity before it became late?

A possible objection may be: well, even those appointed by a manifestly heretical antipope could receive ordinary jurisdiction.

The problem is, the objection is contrary to one of the sede's own sources for sede-vacantism, namely cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio

"each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;" Note the words, "each and all of their ... enactments ... shall be without force and grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone". What follows? That all those appointed by the MHA neither any stable authority, nor any right to rule in any form. 

Text taken from the Sede Site Daily Catholic: http://www.dailycatholic.org/cuмexapo.htm

Therefore, if the Church requires diocesan Bishops to have continued to be appointed, and She does, the last 6 Popes were really Popes.
"We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


Offline Nishant Xavier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2873
  • Reputation: +1893/-1750
  • Gender: Male
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Your Triumph Come!
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • And here's Rev. Stanislaus Woywod's commentary on the Code of Canon Law for anyone inclined to dispute the Major Premise.

    “210. The bishops are the successors of the Apostles and are placed by Divine law over the individual churches, which they govern with ordinary authority under the authority of the Roman Pontiff. They are freely appointed by the Pope. If some college has received the right to elect the bishop, Canon 321 shall be observed, which requires the absolute majority of votes of all those who have the right to vote. (Canon 329.)  
     
     213. Every candidate to the episcopate, even those elected, presented or designated by the civil government, needs the canonical provision or institution in order to be the lawful bishop of a vacant diocese. The only one to institute a bishop is the Roman Pontiff. (Canon 332.)”
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41859
    • Reputation: +23917/-4344
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Major: Only a Pope can appoint Bishops to sees/dioceses.
    Minor: SVism says there has been no Pope for 61 years.  
    Conclusion: Therefore, no diocesan Bishop has been appointed for 61 years.

    As you know, I hold that a material pope can appoint bishops, so this doesn't apply to my position.

    But the issue here with this argument is that you would have to prove that Bishops with ordinary jurisdiction are required to elect a Pope.  St. Robert Bellarmine held that an Imperfect Council could elect a Pope in an emergency, say if the entire Cardinalate were wiped out in a war ... since the Cardinalate is not of divine institution.  So the remaining bishops, whether ordinaries or not, could presumably gather in Council to elect a new Pope.  Said pope, by virtue of this designation, would be given authority by God, and then he in turn could appoint bishops to the various episcopal sees.

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think until we have a Pope that will actually make clear rulings on this stuff, we should be charitable to each other.  In my mind this goes both for the Sedes who want to say the R + R is heretical on the ordinary magisterium, or the R + Rs who want to say Sedes are heretics on technical grounds like these.  Definitely we have to learn and know our faith for ourselves better than ever before, but I also don't think God is looking to send well meaning Catholics to Hell because they didn't have the right interpretation of this or that.

    If some future Pope who is unquestioned by anyone actually makes an authoritative ruling on this, I think we'd all submit to it.  

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 3475
    • Reputation: +2003/-447
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • How will sede-vacantists evade the conclusion that straight sedevacantism, now in 2019, manifestly leads to EVism and is therefore heretical?
    Whoa, slow down there, buddy. We need to look at the "is therefore heretical" part a little more. Can you please explain why the conclusion you describe would be heretical. Another syllogism would be great, too. I wish more people used syllogisms around here. It really helps clarify the argument, or at least that's what the medieval scholastics thought. :-\

    Why didn't sedevacantists write to the earlier Ordinaries and ask them to convene in Council before this happened? You surely had decades to do so, so why didn't you all seize the opportunity before it became late?

    Excellent question. Actually, they did. I believe the late Fr. Noel Barbara, a French sedevacantist priest who was ordained before the Council, sent out a letter written in Latin to all the bishops listed in the Vatican directory explaining the heresies of Vatican 2 and the situation in the Church, and asking them to deal with the problems in the Church. I think this would have been in the 1970s or 1980s. He got no response.

    Bp. Donald Sanborn tried the same thing in the 1990s. Again, no response.

    Bp. Sanborn also had a wealthy layman in his parish who wrote a letter to several conservative cardinals asking them to address the problems of heresy in the Church. He traveled to Rome and spoke to several of them, including Cardinal Ody (spelling?) and another American cardinal. The American cardinal turned out to be just another modernist, while Cardinal Oddi agreed with everything he said about the problems with modernism, but declined to get involved in any way.
    Those are the only examples I know of, and I wouldn't be surprised if other people didn't try to explain the problems with modernism and Vatican 2 to the bishops over the years.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10304
    • Reputation: +6213/-1742
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1.  Sedevacantism, as a legitimate theory, started with the heresies of the V2 popes in the 1960s.
    2.  Such V2 heresies and popes still continue today.
    3.  Ergo, sedevacantism, as a legitimate theory, still continues today...until V2 is properly anathematized.

    Offline King Wenceslas

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 344
    • Reputation: +100/-136
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Commentary of Leo XIII:

    Quote
    “Is it the rock upon which Christ builds the Church or the Church? The expression indeed is ambiguous, as if the rock and the Church were one and the same. I indeed think that this is so, and that neither against the rock upon which Christ builds His Church nor against the Church shall the gates of Hell prevail” (Origenes, Comment. in Matt., tom. xii., n. ii). The meaning of this divine utterance is, that, notwithstanding the wiles and intrigues which they bring to bear against the Church, it can never be that the church committed to the care of Peter shall succuмb or in any wise fail. “For the Church, as the edifice of Christ who has wisely built ‘His house upon a rock,’ cannot be conquered by the gates of Hell, which may prevail over any man who shall be off the rock and outside the Church, but shall be powerless against it”  (Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Satis Cognitum)

    So how is the above true with this:


    Pope Francis speaks during an audience.

    And then we have no more valid Bishops after 61 years. Seems suspicious to say the least.

    Suspicious in that the Papal infallibility leads one almost immediately to sede(whateverism) when a Pope speaks, writes, or legislates heresy. Does Papal infallibility lead the Church to continuous bouts of schism? Pope Francis V shows up in 2289 and spouts a heresy about the nature of Christ and bingo off we go into sedeism again. (It is all the faithfuls fault, they are not walking skeletons due to fasting to keep bad popes away)

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 3475
    • Reputation: +2003/-447
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Commentary of Leo XIII:

    So how is the above true with this:


    Pope Francis speaks during an audience.

    And then we have no more valid Bishops after 61 years. Seems suspicious to say the least.

    Suspicious in that the Papal infallibility leads one almost immediately to sede(whateverism) when a Pope speaks, writes, or legislates heresy. Does Papal infallibility lead the Church to continuous bouts of schism? Pope Francis V shows up in 2289 and spouts a heresy about the nature of Christ and bingo off we go into sedeism again. (It is all the faithfuls fault, they are not walking skeletons due to fasting to keep bad popes away)
    Of course I accept Pope Leo XIII's teaching that the Church will never fail or be conquered by the gates of Hell. It would be heretical to deny that. I strongly doubt anyone on this website thinks such a thing.

    The rest of your post was unclear. Perhaps if you could pose a question, someone could answer it for you. Sedevacantism is simply an application of the teaching of the Church that a pope cannot be a heretic, and cannot teach heresy to the whole Church. Since Francis fulfills both those criteria, he is therefore not the pope. It's a pretty simple idea, really.

    EDIT: typo


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41859
    • Reputation: +23917/-4344
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • And then we have no more valid Bishops after 61 years. Seems suspicious to say the least.

    False.  This isn't about validity.

    Unfortunately, XavierSem's syllogism is unclear.  Is this yet another attempt to make the ecclesiavacantist argument (no more bishops) or a spin on the same (no more bishops means no more popes)?  Not sure.  This isn't a very tight syllogism.  I think this is the third different variation on this same argument now.

    Since it has not been proven with the certainty of faith that the Church defects if there are no more bishops with ordinary jurisdiction, the conclusion cannot be de fide or even proximate to faith.

    I've asked Xavier to cite evidence that the Church must always have ordinary jurisdiction but I found his evidence to be very weak, and certainly nothing that would render the conclusion proximate to faith.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10054
    • Reputation: +5252/-916
    • Gender: Female
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • But the issue here with this argument is that you would have to prove that Bishops with ordinary jurisdiction are required to elect a Pope.  St. Robert Bellarmine held that an Imperfect Council could elect a Pope in an emergency, say if the entire Cardinalate were wiped out in a war ... since the Cardinalate is not of divine institution.  So the remaining bishops, whether ordinaries or not, could presumably gather in Council to elect a new Pope.  Said pope, by virtue of this designation, would be given authority by God, and then he in turn could appoint bishops to the various episcopal sees.
    Hmmm....  :ready-to-eat:
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1.  Sedevacantism, as a legitimate theory, started with the heresies of the V2 popes in the 1960s.
    2.  Such V2 heresies and popes still continue today.
    3.  Ergo, sedevacantism, as a legitimate theory, still continues today...until V2 is properly anathematized.
    Premise 1 is definitely debatable.  I’m not sure if it’s wrong though 


    Offline Nishant Xavier

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2873
    • Reputation: +1893/-1750
    • Gender: Male
    • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Your Triumph Come!
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Whoa, slow down there, buddy. We need to look at the "is therefore heretical" part a little more. Can you please explain why the conclusion you describe would be heretical. Another syllogism would be great, too. I wish more people used syllogisms around here. It really helps clarify the argument, or at least that's what the medieval scholastics thought.
    Ok, Yeti.

    Major Premise: Vatican I says there will be Shepherds and Teachers in Christ's Church until the end of time.
    Minor Premise: Shepherds and Teachers (Pastores et Doctores in Latin) refer to Bishops with Teaching Office and Jurisdiction.
    Conclusion: Therefore, there will be Bishops with Teaching Office and Jurisdiction in the Church, until the end of time.

    Which premise would you disagree with? Also, a second such syllogism could be constructed from the fact that theologians teach Ordinary Jurisdiction is necessary for formal Apostolic Succession. The Church cannot cease to be Apostolic, ergo ...

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    the issue here with this argument is that you would have to prove that Bishops with ordinary jurisdiction are required to elect a Pope
    In the case of an alleged heretic Pope, the Bishops with jurisdiction must declare the fact, in order for the decision to be binding on the Church. If the Bishops who do so lack jurisdiction, their decision will not be binding. Then, the Church cannot proceed to elect a new Pope.

    Fr. Suarez says, "In the first place, who should pronounce such a sentence? Some say that it should be the Cardinals; and the Church could undoubtedly assign them this faculty, above all if it were established with the consent and decision of the Supreme Pontiffs, as was done for the election. But to this day we do not read anywhere that such a judgment has been confided to them. For this reason, it must be affirmed that, of itself, it belongs to all the Bishops of the Church. For since they are the ordinary pastors and the pillars of the Church, one should consider that such a case concerns them. And since by divine law there is no greater reason to affirm that the matter involves some Bishops more than others, and since, according to human law, nothing has been established in the matter, it must necessarily be held that the matter should be referred to all of them, and even to a general Council. This is the common opinion of the Doctors." Note the words "Ordinary Pastors" etc. Fr. Suarez had also spoken of judgment being passed "by the legitimate jurisdiction of the Church in this context." So, how will that be done, if these Ordinaries do not exist any more, Ladislaus?

    Quote
    I hold that a material pope can appoint bishops, so this doesn't apply to my position
    Well, sede-privationism is a little more complicated than simple sedevacantism, which the OP was aimed at. To a sede-privationist, I would ask two questions, (1) how do you square the theory with the words of cuм Ex that "each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone" and (2) "those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power"

    These statements appear to say as clearly as possible that those appointed by an "antipope" will lack authority. Your thoughts on that?

    Also, take the text of Fr. Woywod. He says only a Roman Pontiff can institute Bishops. What follows from that? Two things (1) Either those apparently were not really instituted, since they were not instituted by Roman Pontiffs. Or, (2) they were really instituted, but only because those instituting them were real Roman Pontiffs. The Pope's universal jurisdiction is what empowers episcopal appointments. But, the sede-privationists say, the universal jurisdiction is precisely what is lacking in "the material Pope".

    Quote
    Excellent question. Actually, they did.
    This is interesting information, thank you. If I was a sede-vacantist, I would likewise believe something like that was necessary to do
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2873
    • Reputation: +1893/-1750
    • Gender: Male
    • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Your Triumph Come!
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Bumped for Ladislaus.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41859
    • Reputation: +23917/-4344
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Bumped for Ladislaus.

    ... as a reminder of how XavierSem lost this argument to the sedevacantists.

    I have no skin in this game, since I lean sedeprivationist ... and I used to agree with the ecclesia-vacantist objection against sedevacantism, but you were thoroughly refuted on this thread.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2873
    • Reputation: +1893/-1750
    • Gender: Male
    • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Your Triumph Come!
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Wrong again, Gallican.

    Rev. Woywod: " 213. Every candidate to the episcopate, even those elected, presented or designated by the civil government, needs the canonical provision or institution in order to be the lawful bishop of a vacant diocese. The only one to institute a bishop is the Roman Pontiff. (Canon 332.)”

    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.