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Offline Meg

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Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2017, 02:28:36 PM »
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  • Heresy is heresy no matter who preaches it. St. Paul said...

    8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. (Gal 1:8-9)

    This was so important, St. Paul said it twice. When he says "though we", he refers to the apostles (including St. Peter). He then says anyone in verse 9. So when he says, "we", "an angel" and then "anyone", it becomes obvious that Bergoglio is not excluded. He does not say to wait for an official judgement.

    St. Francis De Sales (17 th century), Doctor of the Church,  The Catholic Controversy , pp.  305-306: " Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church ..."  

    Evidently, you are not aware of Church teaching regarding the Pope.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #46 on: December 07, 2017, 02:30:40 PM »
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  • Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “ When an external violation of the law has  been committed, malice is presumed in the external forum until the contrary is proven.

    A commentary on this canon by Rev. Eric F. Mackenzie, A.M., S.T.L., J.C.L, states: “The very commission of any act which signifies heresy, e.g., the statement of some doctrine contrary or contradictory to a revealed and defined dogma, gives sufficient ground for juridical presumption of heretical depravity...  Excusing circumstances have to be proved in the external forum, and  the burden of proof is on the person  whose action has given rise to the imputation of heresy. In the absence of such proof, all such excuses are presumed not to exist.”

    St. Robert Bellarmine,  De Romano Pontifice, II, 30 :  “... for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and  condemn him as a heretic.

    Again, you do not give ANY quotes regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy. I specifically asked about Church teaching regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy. When you provide the quotes I asked for, I'll respond to you further. 


    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #47 on: December 07, 2017, 02:33:44 PM »
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  • Again, you do not give ANY quotes regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy. I specifically asked about Church teaching regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy. When you provide the quotes I asked for, I'll respond to you further.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #48 on: December 07, 2017, 03:01:26 PM »
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  • That's between him and God. But there is such a thing as manifest heresy which clearly and explicitly contrary de fide teachings. Why is the ability to know this constantly questioned in general because many people don't possess the necessary faculties to discern it?
    If my priest stands before the congregation and says:" I've converted to Islam", is his apostasy, in good conscience, not to be taken as an objective fact? If a bishop states publically that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh and die on the cross, is there some reaosonable doubt left somewhere as to my obligation to shun him as a heretic? And if an apparent pope teaches moral relativism and gradualism as part of his authentic magisterium and, after being corrected, persists in this, what am I to think?

    Yes, I've listed the different scenarios before:

    1) "I am becoming a Buddhist."  --- ipso facto gone
    2) "I know that the Church teaches x but I don't believe it anyway." --- ipso facto gone
    3) "I believe x and don't consider it to be heresy." -- complicated

    Ratzinger and Wojtyla certainly believed that they were being consistent with Tradition ... in applying their "hermeneutic of continuity".  But Bergoglio seems to know that he's breaking with Church teaching.  In the case of #3, the Church would have to discern that what he's saying is indeed heresy.  Then if he recanted, there would not have been any deposition ... even though the heresy had become "manifest".  If he then persisted, the "Church" could come back and reaffirm her judgment and warn Bergoglio that she would consider him a heretic if he persisted.  Then, after that, if he persisted, the Church could declare him deposed.  Undboutedly he would still have backers, and then what?  Call in someone to forcibly remove him from the Vatican when as a point of law the Pope owns Church property.  This would get messy very quickly.

    Ultimately God will need to intervene and solve this mess.

    In the meantime, there certainly exists grave positive doubt about their legitimacy.  And that's enough for me to refuse my submission without schism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #49 on: December 07, 2017, 03:06:33 PM »
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  • With regard to +Lefebvre NOT being a sedeplenist, consider this.

    Theologians teach that the legitimacy of a pope is dogmatic fact, i.e. that it's known with the certainty of faith.  Otherwise, any dogmas he teaches cannot have the certainty of faith either.  Now, +Lefebvre often mulled over the possibility that the V2 popes might be illegitimate.  BY THAT VERY FACT, he's a sededoubtist and not a sedeplenist.  Papa dubius nullus papa ... in the practical order.  If he were a sedeplenist, he could no sooner question the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants than he could the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

    I asked R&R folks here before whether they were as convinced that Bergoglio is pope as they are that Our Lady was Assumed into heaven.  They invariably answered no.  Consequently, they are NOT sedeplenists and are sededoubtists ... even if they don't know it themselves.  If someone were to ask me if I would bet my life on the truth of the Immaculate Conception, I would do it without hesitation.  If someone were to ask me if I would bet my life that Bergoglio is pope, I would run the other way.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #50 on: December 07, 2017, 04:16:31 PM »
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  • I didn't say that I take +ABL's view of whether or not sedes are Catholic or not, or out of the Church. That in itself wasn't the point of the argument.

    And I never said that sedes are going to hell. They are just nuts, that's all. And the dogmatic ones aren't Catholic.  
    Suddenly it's just the "dogmatic ones" that aren't Catholic.
    Meg stated in another thread:
    Sometimes people can't see the obvious: that it's the Catholic faith you're giving them, rather than the sedevacantist faith (which isn't the Catholic faith). 

    The truth of the matter is that Meg doesn't think ANY sede is Catholic. 
    If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema. - Council of Trent

    Offline AJNC

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #51 on: December 09, 2017, 01:57:57 AM »
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  • A couple of years or so ago, an SSPX priest told me that a former confrere of his in this Asia District had quit the priesthood and had got married to a divorcee who was (once?) apparently a Traditional Catholic.
    Now, can, under Bergoglio's dispensation, firmly planted in the AAS, this happy couple attend Mass at an SSPX chapel and receive Communion?. In fact, can they attend Mass at the chapel where the ex-husband is a regular attendee, and receive Communion there?

     

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