Author Topic: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS  (Read 2175 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2017, 11:48:05 AM »
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  • Repeat after me: nobody can judge of a pope.

    That means that nobody is invested with the authority level official judgments against a pope. It's not possible to drag someone recognised as the Pope before the Inquisition or to have a body of bishops judge him. He can be corrected, but he cannot be judged.

    Pope St. Nicholas, epistle (8), Proposueramus quidem, 865: “… Neither by Augustus, nor by all the clergy, nor by religious, not by the people will the judge be judged… ‘The first seat will not be judged by anyone.’"

    Pope St. Leo IX, In terra pax hominibus, Sept. 2, 1053, Chap. 32: “… As the hinge while remaining immoveable opens and closes the door, so Peter and his successors have free judgment over all the Church, since no one should remove their status because ‘the highest See is judged by no one.’”

    Canon 1556, 1917 Code of Canon Law, On trials in general: “The First See is judged by no one.”

    We're not talking about a juridical sentencing but a discernment by the Church about the orthodoxy or lack thereof of a particular Pontiff.  Quite a few theologians hold that the Church would have to make a declaratory statement regarding this discernment.  Rejection of a Pope as a non-Catholic cannot come from Joe Sixpack in the pew.  Yes, yes; once it's been determined that the Pope is a heretic he loses office regardless of whether or not he had received Universal Acceptance as pope.  Problem at hand is how does that determination get made and by whom?

    Offline happenby

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #31 on: December 07, 2017, 11:48:31 AM »
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  • No. You've totally misread those words.
    What they plainly state is that if the person in question is a judge, then he has henceforth lost all power to judge and no cases are to be brought before him for judgment.
    The "hearing" mentioned is not a hearing held in order to judge the judge; it is rather a case brought before that judge for judgment (case brought to their hearing).
    Is English not your first language?
    Ok, I'll accept that.  What about the Council of Constantinople?


    Offline happenby

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #32 on: December 07, 2017, 11:49:40 AM »
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  • Yes Meg, we're aware that you have a level of reading comprehension similar to happenby's.
    Calm down, you're so crotchety.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #33 on: December 07, 2017, 11:51:10 AM »
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  • Calm down, you're so crotchety.

    Your comment is much kinder than that which I was contemplating.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #34 on: December 07, 2017, 12:08:02 PM »
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  • Your comment is much kinder than that which I was contemplating.
    Temporary insanity


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #35 on: December 07, 2017, 12:08:29 PM »
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  • Quote
    ...  We enact, determine, decree and define ... that if ever at any time it shall appear that ... the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy ...

    It shall appear to WHOM?  To Grandma Jones?  I knew a guy who considered Pius IX a non-pope because it "appeared" to HIM that Pius IX had embraced heresy.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #36 on: December 07, 2017, 12:10:33 PM »
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  • How should Joe Sixpack in the pew decide which declarations from which bishops to believe?

    That's why theologians such as John of St. Thomas felt that one would, practically speaking, need an Imperfect Council to issue a declaration of heresy.  Otherwise, as he said, there would be complete chaos in the Church.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #37 on: December 07, 2017, 12:23:14 PM »
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  • Repeat after me: nobody can judge of a pope.

    That means that nobody is invested with the authority level official judgments against a pope. It's not possible to drag someone recognised as the Pope before the Inquisition or to have a body of bishops judge him. He can be corrected, but he cannot be judged.

    Pope St. Nicholas, epistle (8), Proposueramus quidem, 865: “… Neither by Augustus, nor by all the clergy, nor by religious, not by the people will the judge be judged… ‘The first seat will not be judged by anyone.’"

    Pope St. Leo IX, In terra pax hominibus, Sept. 2, 1053, Chap. 32: “… As the hinge while remaining immoveable opens and closes the door, so Peter and his successors have free judgment over all the Church, since no one should remove their status because ‘the highest See is judged by no one.’”

    Canon 1556, 1917 Code of Canon Law, On trials in general: “The First See is judged by no one.”

    No ONE PERSON can judge a Pope, that's true. And there isn't a set doctrine in regards to how to deal with a heretical Pope. Surely you know that. Various theologians have different formulas for dealing with the possibility for a Pope who is in heresy.

    Sedevacantists tend to believe that the Pope is equal to God, but he isn't. He can be judged by a body of men. How it is that they separate a heretic Pope from the papacy is not clear.

    You can quote canon law till the cows come home in defense of your position, but quotes can be provided to the contrary.

    We do not live in the wild west, where law doesn't matter, and where the populace then takes matters into their own hands and administers frontier justice. That's not how the Church works.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #38 on: December 07, 2017, 12:50:30 PM »
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  • Pope St. Nicholas
    “… Neither by Augustus, nor by all the clergy, nor by religious, not by the people will the judge be judged… ‘The first seat will not be judged by anyone.’"


    What is it about this quote that you don't understand, Meg?  

    Alright, so please tell what doctrine tells us EXACTLY how we are to deal with a heretical pope. Please be specific. Notice that I'm asking about how to deal in a practical manner with a Pope who is in heresy. What does the Church teach on how to exactly go about it?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #39 on: December 07, 2017, 01:02:18 PM »
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  • They don't separate anyone; separation is ipso facto an immediate consequence of the heresy itself.
    Canon 188.4

    “Through tacit resignation, accepted by the law itself, all offices become vacant ipso facto and without any declaration if a cleric: ...n.4. Has publicly forsaken the Catholic Faith.”
    (Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione, si clericus: ...4 A fide catholica publice defecerit.)

    So what is Church teaching regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy? Where does it say that laypersons are to proclaim that the seat is vacant, and that we then are also required to force others to believe the same thing?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #40 on: December 07, 2017, 01:26:48 PM »
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  • There is no such doctrine. That it doesn't exist doesn't change any facts. It's like asking if doctrine existed specifically to deal with the Western schism and antipopes - that's probably also the best case to look at to guess how things might resolve themselves. If one denies valid orders to the Novus Ordo bishops, it becomes more difficult to imagine.
    I'll tell you what wasn't anyone's position during those times, though: we recognise you as the true pope but refuse to submit to you and your teaching.

    Are you sure that there's no doctrine on how to deal with those who are in schism? I'm pretty sure that there is.

    The situation with the anti-popes is a different situation.

    There HAS to be a method (Church teaching), if you are going to adopt the Ipso Facto methodology on how to deal with a heretic Pope, after he is proclaimed by laypersons to no longer be the Pope. Though, of course, there is no doctrine which says that laymen are to proclaim and judge that the Pope is not a Pope, much less on how to treat the non-Pope after laypersons proclaim he is not the pope. Sedes try to force others to adopt their view, through intimidation. What Church teaching says that this behavior is acceptable and needed? 

    You are venturing into unknown territory when dealing with a heretical Pope, and yet you sedes act as if the there's a specific doctrine that says that laypersons are to judge and proclaim as to whether the seat is empty or not.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #41 on: December 07, 2017, 01:35:13 PM »
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  • There is no doctrine, but there is a precedent that was established in the early Church, and Saint Robert Bellarmine uses this precedent as an example to back up his teaching on the Roman Pontiff.

    Let's go back to your original statement where you said: "He can be judged by a body of men."

    The POPE cannot be judged by any power on earth - period.  Now, if a pope were to become a manifest (public) heretic, he ceases to be pope, thus he can be judged and punished by the Church.  This is the teaching of St. Robert Bellarmine.  

    I understand that there are theologians with differing opinions, but St. Robert's teaching stems from a precedent established during the Arian crisis.  

    St. Roberts says in De Romano Pontifice:
    "Therefore, the true opinion is the fifth, according to which the Pope who is manifestly a heretic ceases by himself to be Pope and head, in the same way as he ceases to be a Christian and a member of the body of the Church; and for this reason he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the opinion of all the ancient Fathers, who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction..."

    He continues:
    "The foundation of this argument is that the manifest heretic is not in any way a member of the Church, that is, neither spiritually nor corporally, which signifies that he is not such by internal union nor by external union."

    He goes on to further explain what happened to Pope Liberius during the Arian crisis:
    "In addition, unless we are to admit that Liberius defected for a time from constancy in defending the Faith, we are compelled to exclude Felix II, who held the pontificate while Liberius was alive, from the number of the Popes: but the Catholic Church venerates this very Felix as Pope and martyr. However this may be, Liberius neither taught heresy, nor was a heretic, but only sinned by external act, as did St. Marcellinus, and unless I am mistaken, sinned less than St. Marcellinus.

    Then two years later came the lapse of Liberius, of which we have spoken above. Then indeed the Roman clergy, stripping Liberius of his pontifical dignity, went over to Felix, whom they knew [then] to be a Catholic. From that time, Felix began to be the true Pontiff. For although Liberius was not a heretic, nevertheless he was considered one, on account of the peace he made with the Arians, and by that presumption the pontificate could rightly [merito] be taken from him: for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and condemn him as a heretic."




    Seems pretty Catholic to me.  

    However, does anyone really believe that the heresiarchs in Rome are going to actually do anything about their fellow heretic?  

    Since you admit there's no doctrine, then we do not have to accept the quotes you provide, and therefore we are allowed to form a view from the opposing theologians such as John of St. Thomas and Suarez, correct?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #42 on: December 07, 2017, 02:07:02 PM »
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  • Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “ When an external violation of the law has  been committed, malice is presumed in the external forum until the contrary is proven.

    A commentary on this canon by Rev. Eric F. Mackenzie, A.M., S.T.L., J.C.L, states: “The very commission of any act which signifies heresy, e.g., the statement of some doctrine contrary or contradictory to a revealed and defined dogma, gives sufficient ground for juridical presumption of heretical depravity...  Excusing circumstances have to be proved in the external forum, and  the burden of proof is on the person  whose action has given rise to the imputation of heresy. In the absence of such proof, all such excuses are presumed not to exist.”

    St. Robert Bellarmine,  De Romano Pontifice, II, 30 :  “... for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and  condemn him as a heretic.

    Do the above quotes apply specifically to the Pope? Because the situation with a Pope regarding heresy is different than that of other Catholics. 

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #43 on: December 07, 2017, 02:19:00 PM »
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  • How so?  A heretic is a heretic, no?

    Well, as sedes are so fond of pointing out, no person can judge the Pope. He technically has no earthly authority above him.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #44 on: December 07, 2017, 02:27:09 PM »
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  • Pronouncing juridical judgment - making factual discernment: two different things.

    They are not two different things. They are the same thing, since you proclaim that anyone (such as R&R's) who do not not accept your view of the situation is a schismatic. 

     

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