Author Topic: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS  (Read 1699 times)

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Offline Lastdays

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Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2017, 01:59:23 PM »
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  • So what is Church teaching regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy? Where does it say that laypersons are to proclaim that the seat is vacant, and that we then are also required to force others to believe the same thing?

    Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “ When an external violation of the law has  been committed, malice is presumed in the external forum until the contrary is proven.

    A commentary on this canon by Rev. Eric F. Mackenzie, A.M., S.T.L., J.C.L, states: “The very commission of any act which signifies heresy, e.g., the statement of some doctrine contrary or contradictory to a revealed and defined dogma, gives sufficient ground for juridical presumption of heretical depravity...  Excusing circumstances have to be proved in the external forum, and  the burden of proof is on the person  whose action has given rise to the imputation of heresy. In the absence of such proof, all such excuses are presumed not to exist.”

    St. Robert Bellarmine,  De Romano Pontifice, II, 30 :  “... for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and  condemn him as a heretic.
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #76 on: December 07, 2017, 02:07:02 PM »
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  • Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “ When an external violation of the law has  been committed, malice is presumed in the external forum until the contrary is proven.

    A commentary on this canon by Rev. Eric F. Mackenzie, A.M., S.T.L., J.C.L, states: “The very commission of any act which signifies heresy, e.g., the statement of some doctrine contrary or contradictory to a revealed and defined dogma, gives sufficient ground for juridical presumption of heretical depravity...  Excusing circumstances have to be proved in the external forum, and  the burden of proof is on the person  whose action has given rise to the imputation of heresy. In the absence of such proof, all such excuses are presumed not to exist.”

    St. Robert Bellarmine,  De Romano Pontifice, II, 30 :  “... for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and  condemn him as a heretic.

    Do the above quotes apply specifically to the Pope? Because the situation with a Pope regarding heresy is different than that of other Catholics. 


    Online Bellator Dei

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #77 on: December 07, 2017, 02:17:07 PM »
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  • ...the situation with a Pope regarding heresy is different than that of other Catholics.

    How so?  A heretic is a heretic, no?
    Please pray for all of the holy souls in purgatory.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #78 on: December 07, 2017, 02:19:00 PM »
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  • How so?  A heretic is a heretic, no?

    Well, as sedes are so fond of pointing out, no person can judge the Pope. He technically has no earthly authority above him.

    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #79 on: December 07, 2017, 02:19:07 PM »
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  • Are you sure that there's no doctrine on how to deal with those who are in schism? I'm pretty sure that there is.
    How are we jumping from the question of how the Church is to deal with a pope who becomes a heretic to the question of how to deal with schismatics?

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    The situation with the anti-popes is a different situation.

    It nevertheless presents a solution, unless you are an ecclesia-vacantist. The heretic pope is an antipope and the cardinals, discernign this, elect a true pope, just as happened with each valid election during the Western schism. The bishops in union with the true pope then have the authority to declare to deliver definitive judgment. "Simple", in that sense. The problem arises if one rejects the "Novus Ordo" bishops and their ordinations in their entirety, leaving no authority to even designate a pope.
    This is something separate from how the individual Catholic is to behave according to his best knowledge.

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    There HAS to be a method (Church teaching), if you are going to adopt the Ipso Facto methodology on how to deal with a heretic Pope, after he is proclaimed by laypersons to no longer be the Pope.
    No, there doesn't. That's a non sequitur.

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    if you are going to adopt the Ipso Facto methodology on how to deal with a heretic Pope, after he is proclaimed by laypersons to no longer be the Pope.

    It's not a methodoloy. It's a doctrinal fact. JURISDICTION comes from God, and heretics ipso facto LOSE jurisdiction. This is not a theory. It's not a methodology. It's not positive law. It's not open for discussion. And it's truth does not depend on how this fact works itself out in the recognition of thsi loss of office by the Church.

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    Though, of course, there is no doctrine which says that laymen are to proclaim and judge that the Pope is not a Pope. If you could find such doctrine, I would be interested in seeing it.
    Again: nobody can judge a pope. You're confusing issues here. It's always, in the final anaylysis, going to be the individual who decides to recognise or not to recognise someone as the pope: usually that comes from simply accepting, as one is bound to, what the whole Church and his superiors appear to accept - the man elected as pope - but if there's obvious manifest heresy then that acceptance begins to conflict with ones conscience and reason.
    Again the Western schism is important: there were saints who recognised antipopes and saints who rejected valid popes, even though following the Church to the best of their knowledge and ability, precisely because of that necessary element of fallible personal discernment. They were is material schism - saints no less - but they were not formal schismatics. Sedes don't deny the Papacy as such; they (good-willed) simply cannot in good conscience accept Francis as a pope when they know without doubt that manifest heretics lose office. Might they be wrong? Yes. Does this endanger their souls eo ipso? If it's in good conscience and not rashly decided, then I don't think so.
    As has been said before, the well-intentioned Sedevacantist is at worst in material schism; the R&R'er is, even if he is right, in formal schism; the FSSP type is probably guilty of nothing much at all; the typical Novus Ordo type endangers his soul by submitting to teachers of heresy.

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    You are venturing into unknown territory when dealing with a heretical Pope, and yet you sedes act as if the there's a specific doctrine that says that laypersons are to judge and proclaim as to whether the seat is empty or not.

    Stop calling me a "sede". Are to judge? No. Can discern, at least to the point of grave doubt? Absolutely. And yes, Cum ex apostolatus officio supplies the basis upon which I am permitted to withdraw my submission to and avoid as an heresiarch such a manifest heretic.
    And that's exactly what I do: I have grave doubt, therefore I do not formally recognise, therefore I can materially withdraw and avoid. Is the seat empty? I don't know, and though I wish to discover, I don't need to know.


    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #80 on: December 07, 2017, 02:20:59 PM »
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  • Well, as sedes are so fond of pointing out, no person can judge the Pope. He technically has no earthly authority above him.
    Pronouncing juridical judgment - making factual discernment: two different things.

    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #81 on: December 07, 2017, 02:23:15 PM »
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  • Do the above quotes apply specifically to the Pope? Because the situation with a Pope regarding heresy is different than that of other Catholics.

    Heresy is heresy no matter who preaches it. St. Paul said...

    8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. (Gal 1:8-9)

    This was so important, St. Paul said it twice. When he says "though we", he refers to the apostles (including St. Peter). He then says anyone in verse 9. So when he says, "we", "an angel" and then "anyone", it becomes obvious that Bergoglio is not excluded. He does not say to wait for an official judgement.

    St. Francis De Sales (17 th century), Doctor of the Church,  The Catholic Controversy , pp.  305-306: " Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church ..."  

    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #82 on: December 07, 2017, 02:27:09 PM »
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  • Pronouncing juridical judgment - making factual discernment: two different things.

    They are not two different things. They are the same thing, since you proclaim that anyone (such as R&R's) who do not not accept your view of the situation is a schismatic. 


    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #83 on: December 07, 2017, 02:28:36 PM »
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  • Heresy is heresy no matter who preaches it. St. Paul said...

    8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. (Gal 1:8-9)

    This was so important, St. Paul said it twice. When he says "though we", he refers to the apostles (including St. Peter). He then says anyone in verse 9. So when he says, "we", "an angel" and then "anyone", it becomes obvious that Bergoglio is not excluded. He does not say to wait for an official judgement.

    St. Francis De Sales (17 th century), Doctor of the Church,  The Catholic Controversy , pp.  305-306: " Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church ..."  

    Evidently, you are not aware of Church teaching regarding the Pope.

    Online Bellator Dei

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #84 on: December 07, 2017, 02:29:53 PM »
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  • Evidently, you are not aware of Church teaching regarding the Pope.

    Do tell, Meg...
    Please pray for all of the holy souls in purgatory.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #85 on: December 07, 2017, 02:30:40 PM »
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  • Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “ When an external violation of the law has  been committed, malice is presumed in the external forum until the contrary is proven.

    A commentary on this canon by Rev. Eric F. Mackenzie, A.M., S.T.L., J.C.L, states: “The very commission of any act which signifies heresy, e.g., the statement of some doctrine contrary or contradictory to a revealed and defined dogma, gives sufficient ground for juridical presumption of heretical depravity...  Excusing circumstances have to be proved in the external forum, and  the burden of proof is on the person  whose action has given rise to the imputation of heresy. In the absence of such proof, all such excuses are presumed not to exist.”

    St. Robert Bellarmine,  De Romano Pontifice, II, 30 :  “... for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and  condemn him as a heretic.

    Again, you do not give ANY quotes regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy. I specifically asked about Church teaching regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy. When you provide the quotes I asked for, I'll respond to you further. 


    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #86 on: December 07, 2017, 02:31:14 PM »
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  • Well, as sedes are so fond of pointing out, no person can judge the Pope. He technically has no earthly authority above him.

    The Pope is judged by divine law. Heresy severs all (including a Pope) from the Church "ipso facto". The Church does not judge the Pope, because by his heresy he is no longer the Pope. Rather he is a heretic, and therefore the Church can judge him (as a heretic).
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #87 on: December 07, 2017, 02:32:28 PM »
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  • Evidently, you are not aware of Church teaching regarding the Pope.
    Please tell me the teaching you are referring to.
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #88 on: December 07, 2017, 02:33:44 PM »
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  • Again, you do not give ANY quotes regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy. I specifically asked about Church teaching regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy. When you provide the quotes I asked for, I'll respond to you further.

    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #89 on: December 07, 2017, 02:39:31 PM »
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  • Again, you do not give ANY quotes regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy. I specifically asked about Church teaching regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy. When you provide the quotes I asked for, I'll respond to you further.

    I gave you teachings from the Church. When the Church teaches that heretics are not members of the Church and that we are to presume dolus in the external forum, then we are not allowed to import our own exceptions. If the Church wished to make an exception for the Pope, she would have done so. In fact, the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia states that loss of Church membership and office due to heresy most definitely includes the Pope (removing all doubt).

    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

     

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