Author Topic: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS  (Read 1563 times)

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Offline Lastdays

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Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2017, 08:43:10 PM »
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  • Typical Pharisede response.

     :jester:
    Typical non-response. :sleep:
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #31 on: December 06, 2017, 09:16:25 PM »
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  • What are you doubting exactly? The conclave? If he is accepted by all the Roman clergy then how can you have doubts?

    From Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio, Pope Paul IV, 1559...

    In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy: the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless; it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation.
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #32 on: December 06, 2017, 10:22:12 PM »
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  • Ummm ... presumably because they actually care about people's souls? And this latest news constiutes not only proof that Frankie is a manifest heretic, but it is an unambiguous teaching of heresy through a popes authentic magisterium, which, at the very least if left unchallenged, unrecanted and uncorrected, violates indefectibility?
    There's no wiggle room for a get-out-of-jail-free card here as there arguably is for Vatican II. As a Catholic you HAVE TO submit to this teaching. Canon law DEMANDS that you do. The FSSP can't argue the "hemeneutic of continuity " here, because it's unambiguous. The SSPX can't say that this teaching is just some kind of list of suggestions from a get-together of bishops with the Pope. It's not a private opinion expressed in a letter. It's not an off-the-cuff remark during an interview. It's not a blunder in a sermon. This is the Pope teaching as pope and to the Church. It's AUTHENTIC MAGISTERIUM concerning FAITH AND MORALS, in particular the every nature of morality itself.

    Submit to the pope's teaching.
    The R&R can’t win here.  Either they destroy what they were trying to protect (traditional doctrine) or they submit and lose their identity.  It’s like a Vietnam: “We had to destroy the village in order to save it.”

    Offline AJNC

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #33 on: December 07, 2017, 12:29:50 AM »
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  • Sedevacantists say one thing....Catholics say another. I follow ABL's thinking on the matter.
    This site calls itself catholic-hierarchy.org and  it says that ABL left the Church.
    Archbishop Marcel-François Lefebvre, C.S.Sp. †
    Deceased
    Bishop Emeritus of Tulle
    Note/Previous Titular See: (left the Church)

    http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/blefebvre.html

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #34 on: December 07, 2017, 04:42:09 AM »
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  • Meg, with all due respect, we don't hold that there is no magisterium, we believe that the magisterium is not readily accessible. No matter how strange this seems to you and to many people, it does not contradict Church teaching. What is absolutely impossible is that the Church can promote sin or evil. Do you see that?
    Meg is blinded by her rabid dogmatic anti-sedevacantism.
    Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #35 on: December 07, 2017, 04:45:41 AM »
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  • So Bergoglio's predecessors subjectivized faith and doctrine.  Now Bergoglio finishes the job by subjectivizing morality.
    Exactly.
    Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #36 on: December 07, 2017, 04:49:46 AM »
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  • Sedevacantists say one thing....Catholics say another. I follow ABL's thinking on the matter.
    Show me where ABL stated that sedevacantists are non-Catholic, out of the Church or going to Hell.   
    Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits

    Offline happenby

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #37 on: December 07, 2017, 09:48:33 AM »
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  • From Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio, Pope Paul IV, 1559...

    In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy: the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless; it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation.
    And yet, Cum Ex assumes a trial.
    Cum Ex...

    "(vii) if perchance they shall have been Judges, their judgements shall have no force, nor shall any cases be brought to their hearing.;"

    So, an HEARING is presumed in Cum Ex. That means, this declaration is only a guideline for determining within an hearing that someone proven guilty of heresy, Pope included, must be treated as written. But an hearing is presumed.

    Bellarmine’s thinking regarding this matter is perfectly consistent with the mind of the Church, as we see expressed in Canon 10 of the Fourth Council of Constantinople. In response to the schism of Photius, the Council attached the grave penalty of excommunication to any layman or monk who, in the future, separated himself from his patriarch (the Pope is Patriarch of the West) before a careful inquiry and judgment by a synod.

    “As divine scripture clearly proclaims, ‘Do not find fault before you investigate, and understand first and then find fault’. And does our law judge a person without first giving him a hearing and learning what he does? Consequently this holy and UNIVERSAL SYNOD justly and fittingly declares and lays down that no lay person or monk or cleric should separate himself from communion with his own patriarch before a careful inquiry and judgment in synod, even if he alleges that he knows of some crime perpetrated by his patriarch, and he must not refuse to include his patriarch's name during the divine mysteries or offices. (…) If anyone shall be found defying this holy synod, he is to be debarred from all priestly functions and status if he is a bishop or cleric; if a monk or lay person, he must be excluded from all communion and meetings of the church [i.e. excommunicated] until he is converted by repentance and reconciled”.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #38 on: December 07, 2017, 10:22:34 AM »
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  • Show me where ABL stated that sedevacantists are non-Catholic, out of the Church or going to Hell.  

    I didn't say that I take +ABL's view of whether or not sedes are Catholic or not, or out of the Church. That in itself wasn't the point of the argument.

    And I never said that sedes are going to hell. They are just nuts, that's all. And the dogmatic ones aren't Catholic.  

    Offline happenby

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #39 on: December 07, 2017, 10:33:56 AM »
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  • I didn't say that I take +ABL's view of whether or not sedes are Catholic or not, or out of the Church. That in itself wasn't the point of the argument.

    And I never said that sedes are going to hell. They are just nuts, that's all. And the dogmatic ones aren't Catholic.  
    I was wondering where he came up with that considering what you actually said.  

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #40 on: December 07, 2017, 10:45:38 AM »
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  • I was wondering where he came up with that considering what you actually said.  

    That's one of the things which makes it difficult to debate with sedes. 


    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #41 on: December 07, 2017, 10:51:52 AM »
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  • And yet, Cum Ex assumes a trial.
    Cum Ex...

    "(vii) if perchance they shall have been Judges, their judgements shall have no force, nor shall any cases be brought to their hearing.;"

    So, an HEARING is presumed in Cum Ex. That means, this declaration is only a guideline for determining within an hearing that someone proven guilty of heresy, Pope included, must be treated as written. But an hearing is presumed.

    Bellarmine’s thinking regarding this matter is perfectly consistent with the mind of the Church, as we see expressed in Canon 10 of the Fourth Council of Constantinople. In response to the schism of Photius, the Council attached the grave penalty of excommunication to any layman or monk who, in the future, separated himself from his patriarch (the Pope is Patriarch of the West) before a careful inquiry and judgment by a synod.

    “As divine scripture clearly proclaims, ‘Do not find fault before you investigate, and understand first and then find fault’. And does our law judge a person without first giving him a hearing and learning what he does? Consequently this holy and UNIVERSAL SYNOD justly and fittingly declares and lays down that no lay person or monk or cleric should separate himself from communion with his own patriarch before a careful inquiry and judgment in synod, even if he alleges that he knows of some crime perpetrated by his patriarch, and he must not refuse to include his patriarch's name during the divine mysteries or offices. (…) If anyone shall be found defying this holy synod, he is to be debarred from all priestly functions and status if he is a bishop or cleric; if a monk or lay person, he must be excluded from all communion and meetings of the church [i.e. excommunicated] until he is converted by repentance and reconciled”.

    The above is my understanding as well. There needs to be a determination of whether or not heresy or deviation from the Faith exists. That determination isn't made by laymen, but rather by a synod or council (a body made up of members of the hierarchy). The accused must then has chance to recant and repent of his heresy, after the determination is made that heresy exists.

    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #42 on: December 07, 2017, 11:01:38 AM »
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  • I didn't say that I take +ABL's view of whether or not sedes are Catholic or not, or out of the Church. That in itself wasn't the point of the argument.

    And I never said that sedes are going to hell. They are just nuts, that's all. And the dogmatic ones aren't Catholic.  
    So non-Catholics aren't going to Hell?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #43 on: December 07, 2017, 11:06:47 AM »
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  • So non-Catholics aren't going to Hell?

    I had a feeling that one of you were going to ask that.

    But hey, I believe in BoD. So there's hope even for dogmatic sedes. ;D

    Surely our Lord in His great mercy is not going to let the nutty sedes go to Hell. They have a mental condition, which may be an extenuating factor. 

    Not that my opinion is accurate. We're all just laymen, after all. 

    Offline GJC

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    Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
    « Reply #44 on: December 07, 2017, 11:23:39 AM »
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  • Sedevacantists say one thing....Catholics say another. I follow ABL's thinking on the matter.
    Meg,

    Yesterday you made this comment... this is why you are being questioned.

    You are saying sedevacantists are not Catholics...  non-Catholics are not saved... or are they?



     

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