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Author Topic: 2,000 Years Of Infallible Papal Teaching On Baptism’s Absolute Necessity  (Read 1089 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
So, yes, the fact that the SACRAMENT of Baptism is necessary for salvation, that's dogma.

Now, the non-heretical articulations of BoD, those which don't say stuff like how you can be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament, or that there are "substitutes" for the Sacrament ... the few non-heretical formulations you have out there, such as that of St. Robert Bellarmine where Catechumens can be saved not without the Sacrament, but, rather, receiving it "in voto".

Even in BoD, they have to claim that the Sacrament was the CAUSE of justification / salvation, the instrumental cause, as Trent teaches about it.  That's what "necessary" (by necessity of means) indicates, i.e. that there was a CAUSA SINE QUA NON (a cause without which it could not take place).

In other words, they have to say that it was the Sacrament that profitted them unto salvation ... except Florence rules this out, stating clearly that for those who are not in the BODY of the Church, the Sacraments cannot profit them unto salvation, and one does not become united to the body of the Church (i.e. in the unity of the body of the Church) until the Sacrament of Baptism.

See, this actually undercuts even Msgr. Fenton's desperation attempt to claim that those saved by BoD can be IN the Body even if they are not OF the Body.  Well, the expression "in the unity of" precludes MERELY being IN the Body (and not part of it) but requires being UNITED to it, which only happens during the Sacrament of Baptism.

Were it not for the fact that the condemnation is not explicit, and requires a bit of reasoning, Florence render BoD heretical.

We await the restoration of the Church to put the final condemnation on this error.

Now, I believe that God permitted this error to go uncondemned and to fester because ... VATICAN II COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT BOD.  Without "BoD", there's absolutely nothing that would have permitted people to circuмvent EENS dogma and to invent the new ecclesiology which is foundational to all the Vatican II errors.

But God wanted this crisis to happen as a test of faith ... and, sadly, many are failing the test, even among Trad Catholics.

Now, God will not damn those who in good faith believe the Church taught BoD, and it's not been condemned with sufficient clarity ... but Vatican II had to happen for a broader reason.

See, before Vatican II, Catholics didn't really have to exercise their faith.  They could "identify" the Church ... as long as they were literate, and could read the sign above the door that said "Catholic Church", and the only "marks" of the Church they needed was the sign marking the location of the any given Catholic Church building.

But now that the Conciliar Church has eclipsed and usurped the True Church, that doesn't work, so people need to actually "work", i.e. exercise their faith, to find the True Church, looking for the actual Marks of the Church.  Those with weak, little, or no faith just lazily say "hey, there's a guy in white cassock, so that's the Church".

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
How exactly does the Sacrament CAUSE justification when it hasn't happened yet.

So, what you're effectively saying is that the idea of wanting to receive the Sacrament justifies ... making the whole thing "ex opere operantis".  As per St. Augustine, in beating down the Pelagians, it's necessary the the Sacrament work "ex opere operato", but since there's no actual Sacrament involved, how can a non-existent thing do accomplish anything at all.

This leads to Decem's heresy on the other page, where it's actually the subject who effects justification "ex opere operantis".

There's really no avoiding this, since a non-existent Sacrament cannot DO anyting at all.  Recall that a Sacrament is a visible sign that confers grace.  So, just thinking about the visible sign, thinking about the Sacrament, effects justification?  So it's because the Sacrament causes a thought about the Sacrament that the Sacrament causes justification?

That's just really stupid.  In order to avoid outright Pelagian heresy, something which 99%+ of BoDers fall into, you have to posit some "spooky" action at a distance, where the proximate cause is "ex opere operantis" even if somehow by spooky action (similar to Quantum physics) the Sacrament causes some effect.

I find this similar to a wedding, where the bride and groom both fully intend to get married ... but if 5 seconds before actually pronouncing the vows, the groom gets cold feet and runs out of the church, they were never married, and no amount of intention changes that.  AND let's say they're PREVENTED from getting married, and the intention to get married lasted until the very end, when the groom dropped dead of a massive heart attack 5 seconds before the vows were to be pronounced.  They were never married.

"votum" in Latin is linguistically related to our word "vow", from the Latin verb "voveo", "vovere", "vovi", "votum", which means "to vow".  I love it how some generic sorrow for sin now suffices to have an implicit "vow" in it.


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
I'd say there is a difference between being lukewarm and saying that you are not an authority on a difficult theological question. Not every theological question has a plain "yes" or "no" answer. That's what I mean by extremism. These are complex matters of theology, church teaching, doctrine, canon law, etc. that require more understanding. That's humility, not luke-warmness.
It is not difficult nor the least bit complicated, it has to be made difficult and made complicated when the idea of a BOD enters into it..... 

"I have said that a Baptism—of—Desire Catholic is not a member of the Church. He cannot be prayed for after death as one of "the faithful departed.” Were he to be revivified immediately after death—were he to come to life again—he would not be allowed to receive Holy Eucharist or any of the other Sacraments until he was baptized by water. Now, if he can get into the Church Triumphant without Baptism of Water, it is strange that he cannot get into the Church Militant without it." - Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
How exactly does the Sacrament CAUSE justification when it hasn't happened yet.

So, what you're effectively saying is that the idea of wanting to receive the Sacrament justifies ... making the whole thing "ex opere operantis".  As per St. Augustine, in beating down the Pelagians, it's necessary the the Sacrament work "ex opere operato", but since there's no actual Sacrament involved, how can a non-existent thing do accomplish anything at all.

This leads to Decem's heresy on the other page, where it's actually the subject who effects justification "ex opere operantis".

There's really no avoiding this, since a non-existent Sacrament cannot DO anyting at all.  Recall that a Sacrament is a visible sign that confers grace.  So, just thinking about the visible sign, thinking about the Sacrament, effects justification?  So it's because the Sacrament causes a thought about the Sacrament that the Sacrament causes justification?

That's just really stupid.  In order to avoid outright Pelagian heresy, something which 99%+ of BoDers fall into, you have to posit some "spooky" action at a distance, where the proximate cause is "ex opere operantis" even if somehow by spooky action (similar to Quantum physics) the Sacrament causes some effect.

I find this similar to a wedding, where the bride and groom both fully intend to get married ... but if 5 seconds before actually pronouncing the vows, the groom gets cold feet and runs out of the church, they were never married, and no amount of intention changes that.  AND let's say they're PREVENTED from getting married, and the intention to get married lasted until the very end, when the groom dropped dead of a massive heart attack 5 seconds before the vows were to be pronounced.  They were never married.

"votum" in Latin is linguistically related to our word "vow", from the Latin verb "voveo", "vovere", "vovi", "votum", which means "to vow".  I love it how some generic sorrow for sin now suffices to have an implicit "vow" in it.

If what I said "on the other page" is heresy, what is this? -

Quote
Besides who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole, wishes every part of that whole, and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament. For it is certain that to such desire is ascribed the spiritual regeneration of a person who has not been baptized, and that the remission of sins to baptized persons who have contrition, is likewise ascribed to the explicit or implicit desire of sacramental absolution.

After all, I simply said that the Catholic faith, with contrition and love of God, and a desire for the sacrament, could justify. This goes a bit beyond that, to put it mildly. It's "ex opere operantis" on steroids, no?

So is this "heresy"?

PS - the quote is from someone who was subsequently made (after the quote, which was published) a saint and doctor of the Church. 

Are you really so full of yourself and your play here on CI that you just scatter cries of "heresy" with abandon? Is speculating on topics theological on CI just a game for you, like shooting and killing on PlayStation?


"I have said that a Baptism—of—Desire Catholic is not a member of the Church. He cannot be prayed for after death as one of "the faithful departed.” Were he to be revivified immediately after death—were he to come to life again—he would not be allowed to receive Holy Eucharist or any of the other Sacraments until he was baptized by water. Now, if he can get into the Church Triumphant without Baptism of Water, it is strange that he cannot get into the Church Militant without it." - Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life
What a wonderful quote