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Author Topic: 1949 Instructio on Ecuмenism  (Read 1553 times)

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Offline Pelele

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1949 Instructio on Ecuмenism
« on: December 07, 2013, 11:40:24 AM »
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  • This decree is regarded as a condemnation of false ecuмenism and as a reiteration of Mortalium Animos, and indeed it is, yet how is it that in #V it still allows for common prayer with heretics?

    Quote
    V—Although in all these meetings and conferences any communication whatsoever in worship must be avoided, yet the recitation in common of the Lord's Prayer or of some prayer approved by the Catholic Church, is not forbidden for opening or closing the said meetings.


    How is this possible?


    Offline SJB

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    1949 Instructio on Ecuмenism
    « Reply #1 on: December 07, 2013, 01:52:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    This decree is regarded as a condemnation of false ecuмenism and as a reiteration of Mortalium Animos, and indeed it is, yet how is it that in #V it still allows for common prayer with heretics?

    Quote
    V—Although in all these meetings and conferences any communication whatsoever in worship must be avoided, yet the recitation in common of the Lord's Prayer or of some prayer approved by the Catholic Church, is not forbidden for opening or closing the said meetings.


    How is this possible?

    Reread Mortalium Animos.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Pelele

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    1949 Instructio on Ecuмenism
    « Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 03:29:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Pelele
    This decree is regarded as a condemnation of false ecuмenism and as a reiteration of Mortalium Animos, and indeed it is, yet how is it that in #V it still allows for common prayer with heretics?

    Quote
    V—Although in all these meetings and conferences any communication whatsoever in worship must be avoided, yet the recitation in common of the Lord's Prayer or of some prayer approved by the Catholic Church, is not forbidden for opening or closing the said meetings.


    How is this possible?

    Reread Mortalium Animos.


    Truly this is all you can ever say, "you're reading it wrong", "you're not understanding it", "it doesn't say that", "there's no contradiction", "both say the same thing" etc. etc. etc. without ever making an argument and actually explaining anything.

    Re-read Mortalium Animos? Well here you go:

    Quote
    #9: Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment "Love one another," altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt version of Christ's teaching: "If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you."

    Offline Nishant

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    1949 Instructio on Ecuмenism
    « Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 04:16:00 PM »
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  • I've read this decree, and to understand why it is unproblematic, please read Sess. XIII Chap. VIII on the safe-conduct granted to the Protestants and Sess. XV in full of the Council of Trent on the same to see how the Fathers there invited in a friendly tone the Protestants to come to the Council for the sake of a theological discussion. There is nothing wrong with this, since it was oriented toward their eventual conversion and it is the same case with the 1949 decree under Pope Pius XII.

    Link1 and Link2.

    It is more difficult for me to understand what is meant by "any communication whatsoever in worship must be avoided" but "recitation in common of the Lord's Prayer" "is not forbidden for opening or closing" the meetings. I think the correct view is that, just as in government functions or other public places, Catholics are allowed to recite a formal prayer and those invited may join in, praying with Catholics in a Catholic prayer, but not praying along in a false heterodox prayer in a heretical service, this can be allowed for the same reason.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Pelele

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    « Reply #4 on: December 07, 2013, 04:54:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    I've read this decree, and to understand why it is unproblematic, please read Sess. XIII Chap. VIII on the safe-conduct granted to the Protestants and Sess. XV in full of the Council of Trent on the same to see how the Fathers there invited in a friendly tone the Protestants to come to the Council for the sake of a theological discussion. There is nothing wrong with this, since it was oriented toward their eventual conversion and it is the same case with the 1949 decree under Pope Pius XII.

    Link1 and Link2.


    I am aware they were invited, as well as in Vatican 1.

    But in both Councils, did they say they could pray in common as in the 1949 Instruction?

    Quote from: Nishant
    I think the correct view is that, just as in government functions or other public places, Catholics are allowed to recite a formal prayer and those invited may join in, praying with Catholics in a Catholic prayer, but not praying along in a false heterodox prayer in a heretical service, this can be allowed for the same reason.


    When did this start? When was the first time they did something like that?


    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #5 on: December 07, 2013, 07:19:01 PM »
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  • Consider these statements from the Council of Florence:

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    Thus, the former council of Basel debated the choice of a place for the future ecuмenical council. Those on whom the power of choosing the place devolved, passed a decree which was accepted by the ambassadors of our most dear son in Christ John, emperor of the Greeks, and of our venerable brother Joseph, patriarch of Constantinople. Some persons chose Avignon or another place, but the said ambassadors protested that most assuredly they did not want to go there, declaring as certain that the said emperor and patriarch would by no means go to the said sacred council unless we attended in person. Those who asked for Avignon, afraid that the Greeks certainly would not come to them, dared to concoct a certain decree or notorious pamphlet, which they call a monition, against us, even though it is null and indeed leads to serious scandal and a split in the church, disrupting this holy work of union with the Greeks.


    Quote
    Finally, our most dear son John Palacologus, emperor of the Romans, together with our venerable brother Joseph, patriarch of Constantinople, the apocrisiaries of the other patriarchal sees and a great multitude of archbishops, ecclesiastics and nobles arrived at their last port, Venice, on 8 February last. There, the said emperor expressly declared, as he had often done before, that for good reasons he could not go to Basel to celebrate the ecuмenical or universal council, and he intimated this by a letter to those assembled at Basel. He exhorted and required all of them to go to Ferrara, which had been chosen for the council, to carry through the pious task of this holy union.


    Quote
    Since in fact the plague continues from day to day and it is feared that it will gain strength when spring and summer come, all judge and advise that a move must be made without delay to some non-infected place. For this and several other good reasons, with the agreement of our dear son John Palaeologus, emperor of the Romans, and of our venerable brother Joseph, patriarch of Constantinople, and with the approval of the council:


    http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm

    It would have been strange to refuse a recitation of the Lord's Prayer with individuals whom you had previously referred to as being a "dear son in Christ" and a "venerable brother."

    Offline Pelele

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    « Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 01:13:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Consider these statements from the Council of Florence:

    Quote
    Thus, the former council of Basel debated the choice of a place for the future ecuмenical council. Those on whom the power of choosing the place devolved, passed a decree which was accepted by the ambassadors of our most dear son in Christ John, emperor of the Greeks, and of our venerable brother Joseph, patriarch of Constantinople. Some persons chose Avignon or another place, but the said ambassadors protested that most assuredly they did not want to go there, declaring as certain that the said emperor and patriarch would by no means go to the said sacred council unless we attended in person. Those who asked for Avignon, afraid that the Greeks certainly would not come to them, dared to concoct a certain decree or notorious pamphlet, which they call a monition, against us, even though it is null and indeed leads to serious scandal and a split in the church, disrupting this holy work of union with the Greeks.


    Quote
    Finally, our most dear son John Palacologus, emperor of the Romans, together with our venerable brother Joseph, patriarch of Constantinople, the apocrisiaries of the other patriarchal sees and a great multitude of archbishops, ecclesiastics and nobles arrived at their last port, Venice, on 8 February last. There, the said emperor expressly declared, as he had often done before, that for good reasons he could not go to Basel to celebrate the ecuмenical or universal council, and he intimated this by a letter to those assembled at Basel. He exhorted and required all of them to go to Ferrara, which had been chosen for the council, to carry through the pious task of this holy union.


    Quote
    Since in fact the plague continues from day to day and it is feared that it will gain strength when spring and summer come, all judge and advise that a move must be made without delay to some non-infected place. For this and several other good reasons, with the agreement of our dear son John Palaeologus, emperor of the Romans, and of our venerable brother Joseph, patriarch of Constantinople, and with the approval of the council:


    http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm

    It would have been strange to refuse a recitation of the Lord's Prayer with individuals whom you had previously referred to as being a "dear son in Christ" and a "venerable brother."


    Were they both schismatic heretics at the time?

    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #7 on: December 08, 2013, 09:47:24 AM »
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  • Yes, at least materially.


    Offline Pelele

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    « Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 01:01:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Yes, at least materially.


    Doesn't look like it.

    Prove it.

    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #9 on: December 08, 2013, 05:16:02 PM »
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  • I am not an expert, but the Wikipedia article seems to be sound:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_VIII_Palaiologos

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #10 on: December 08, 2013, 07:48:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Pelele
    This decree is regarded as a condemnation of false ecuмenism and as a reiteration of Mortalium Animos, and indeed it is, yet how is it that in #V it still allows for common prayer with heretics?

    Quote
    V—Although in all these meetings and conferences any communication whatsoever in worship must be avoided, yet the recitation in common of the Lord's Prayer or of some prayer approved by the Catholic Church, is not forbidden for opening or closing the said meetings.


    How is this possible?

    Reread Mortalium Animos.


    Truly this is all you can ever say, "you're reading it wrong", "you're not understanding it", "it doesn't say that", "there's no contradiction", "both say the same thing" etc. etc. etc. without ever making an argument and actually explaining anything.

    Re-read Mortalium Animos? Well here you go:

    Quote
    #9: Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment "Love one another," altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt version of Christ's teaching: "If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you."


    I've made plenty of very specific arguments. You are the one claiming the Holy Office contradicted Mortalium Animos. You've made no specific argument in support of your "theory."
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #11 on: December 08, 2013, 08:23:16 PM »
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  • It seems completely reasonable that if the Council of Trent allowed Protestants to attend and participate, formerly, at that Council, that Protestants were allowed to be present at the opening of each council session when, of course, the Pater Noster would be recited.

    Offline Pelele

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    « Reply #12 on: December 09, 2013, 07:13:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    You are the one claiming the Holy Office contradicted Mortalium Animos. You've made no specific argument in support of your "theory."


    Argument: a process of reasoning; series of reasons; a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point.

    This is my "argument":

    - Mortalium Animos, and, well, the Bible and other past Holy Office decrees, condemn any and all form of communicatio in divinis with non-Catholics, which of course includes PRAYER.

    - The 1949 Instruction on Ecuмenism allows praying the Pater Noster or any other approved Church prayer with heretics and non-Catholics.

    Explain.

    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 07:29:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    Quote from: SJB
    You are the one claiming the Holy Office contradicted Mortalium Animos. You've made no specific argument in support of your "theory."


    Argument: a process of reasoning; series of reasons; a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point.

    This is my "argument":

    - Mortalium Animos, and, well, the Bible and other past Holy Office decrees, condemn any and all form of communicatio in divinis with non-Catholics, which of course includes PRAYER.

    - The 1949 Instruction on Ecuмenism allows praying the Pater Noster or any other approved Church prayer with heretics and non-Catholics.

    Explain.


    The word which was used is recitation.  Once again, if Protestants were allowed to actively participate during the Council of Trent sessions, were they allowed to be present when the Lord's Prayer was recited, which no doubt occurred just prior to the opening of any day's session?

    Offline Pelele

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    « Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 08:16:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    The word which was used is recitation.  Once again, if Protestants were allowed to actively participate during the Council of Trent sessions, were they allowed to be present when the Lord's Prayer was recited, which no doubt occurred just prior to the opening of any day's session?


    So just because it is "recited" you think it makes a big difference?

    I would like to see incontrovertible evidence of Protestants reciting the Pater Noster during Trent, would be interesting.

    As for Joseph and John, what seemed to be material was their union with the Church, not their schism or heresy, but it ended in nothing.

    I just think it is a scandal that that was allowed in the 1949 I., because that gives them grounds to spread ecuмenism.