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Author Topic: 1917 CIC Canon 1258  (Read 2878 times)

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Offline Cathedra

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1917 CIC Canon 1258
« on: August 16, 2013, 04:11:38 AM »
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  • Canon 1258. At funerals of non-Catholics, at their marriages, and similar solemnities, provided there is no danger of perversion or scandal, passive or merely material presence on account of a civil office or for the purpose of showing respect to a person may be tolerated for a grave reason…

    How can this be good or correct.


    Offline poche

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    1917 CIC Canon 1258
    « Reply #1 on: August 16, 2013, 05:01:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    Canon 1258. At funerals of non-Catholics, at their marriages, and similar solemnities, provided there is no danger of perversion or scandal, passive or merely material presence on account of a civil office or for the purpose of showing respect to a person may be tolerated for a grave reason…

    How can this be good or correct.

    Why not?


    Offline Stubborn

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    1917 CIC Canon 1258
    « Reply #2 on: August 16, 2013, 05:07:21 AM »
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  • First, remember it was a totally different Church and world when that Canon Law was written - the whole world, Catholic or not, basically had a certain understanding about the Catholic Church being in charge and they all had some degree of respect toward Her.

    Next, note it states: "passive or merely material presence" - which means any participation whatsoever is prohibited.

    I was taught that we can go to funerals and weddings of prot or non-Catholics "for social reasons" so long as we do not participate, but these days, with the Church in the shape it is, just showing up implies consent so IMO, we stay away.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Cathedra

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    1917 CIC Canon 1258
    « Reply #3 on: August 16, 2013, 05:14:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    I was taught that we can go to funerals and weddings of prot or non-Catholics "for social reasons" so long as we do not participate, but these days, with the Church in the shape it is, just showing up implies consent so IMO, we stay away.  


    I don't see how one would not sin by omission, at least, just by being there and going to such a thing.

    What in the world would you even talk about with the people there?

    Going to such a thing, passively and materially present, would never even cross my mind.

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #4 on: August 16, 2013, 05:26:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    Quote from: Stubborn
    I was taught that we can go to funerals and weddings of prot or non-Catholics "for social reasons" so long as we do not participate, but these days, with the Church in the shape it is, just showing up implies consent so IMO, we stay away.  


    I don't see how one would not sin by omission, at least, just by being there and going to such a thing.

    What in the world would you even talk about with the people there?

    Going to such a thing, passively and materially present, would never even cross my mind.


    I agree with you completely, but back at the turn of the century, the Church had clout throughout the world - today, a weak comparison might be kinda like the respect that the world today shows a Jєω who might come to a wedding but not eat the pork - everyone knows and respects he does not eat pork because he is a Jєω.

    The last new mess I went to was a NO funeral 15 years ago of a co-worker. Prior to that I'd only been to maybe a few dozen NOMs my whole life - and those were in the late 60s/early 70s when my parents were hunting all over for the true Mass - and nearly all of those we walked out within the first few minutes after seeing it was the NO.

    Needless to say I was out of place at that NO canonization but there were prots there who seemed very comfy with the whole mess.

    Anyway, that was the last time I went and have sworn it off completely since then -  and recommend the same to everyone. In 15 years I've missed many acquaintances' and relatives weddings and funerals - it gets easier and easier to blow them off.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Cathedra

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    « Reply #5 on: August 16, 2013, 05:32:09 AM »
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  • If your entire family were novus ordo, and you were the only true Catholic left, and you had already told almost all of them the truth and that none of them are Catholic, and, say, your grandpa or even your mom or brother were to die, would you go to the canonization mess or the funeral?

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #6 on: August 16, 2013, 06:02:53 AM »
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  • Very good question but one I have no way of truthfully answering because my parents were never NO.

    All I can say is that the closest relative was my aunt who died and I did not go to that NO - if it were one of my siblings - I can honestly say that no, I would not go at all.

    IMO, when one spends their life living the true faith the best that they can, on that account, they will lose most, if not all, of their friends and most, but hopefully not all their relations many years or well before funerals come rolling around. As such, it would seem like it might be much easier on the trad to not go when that time comes if ties were broke years prior - IMO.


         

     

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SJB

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    1917 CIC Canon 1258
    « Reply #7 on: August 16, 2013, 12:27:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    Canon 1258. At funerals of non-Catholics, at their marriages, and similar solemnities, provided there is no danger of perversion or scandal, passive or merely material presence on account of a civil office or for the purpose of showing respect to a person may be tolerated for a grave reason…

    How can this be good or correct.


    Here we have Cathedra openly critical of the 1917 CIC.

    Here is Woywod explaining Canon 1258:

    Quote from: Woywod, Commentary
    1101. It is unlawful for the faithful to assist in any active manner, or to take part, in the sacred services of non-Catholics.
    Merely passive or material presence may be tolerated on account of a civil office, or for the purpose of showing respect to persons, to be approved in doubtful cases by the bishop for grave reasons, at funerals of non-Catholics, at their marriages, and similar solemnities, provided there is danger of neither perversion nor scandal. (Canon 1258.)
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Cathedra

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    « Reply #8 on: August 16, 2013, 04:01:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Cathedra
    Canon 1258. At funerals of non-Catholics, at their marriages, and similar solemnities, provided there is no danger of perversion or scandal, passive or merely material presence on account of a civil office or for the purpose of showing respect to a person may be tolerated for a grave reason…

    How can this be good or correct.


    Here we have Cathedra openly critical of the 1917 CIC.

    Here is Woywod explaining Canon 1258:

    Quote from: Woywod, Commentary
    1101. It is unlawful for the faithful to assist in any active manner, or to take part, in the sacred services of non-Catholics.
    Merely passive or material presence may be tolerated on account of a civil office, or for the purpose of showing respect to persons, to be approved in doubtful cases by the bishop for grave reasons, at funerals of non-Catholics, at their marriages, and similar solemnities, provided there is danger of neither perversion nor scandal. (Canon 1258.)


    I already apologized to you, maybe you missed it.

    Anyways, are you going to tell me the first time you ever saw that canon or heard of it, you weren't surprised or concerned in the slightest? Especially with all that ecuмenism?

    I have read things that condemn any presence whatsoever in a non-Catholic rite. I also heard of Catholics in England never daring to step foot in a false church.

    Offline Frances

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    « Reply #9 on: August 16, 2013, 05:01:47 PM »
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  • I stopped attending weddings, funerals, etc. of relatives even before converting in 2005.  They are exercises in futility.   The weddings require me to purchase clothing and gifts I can't afford.  And in all but one case, the weddings I did attend were followed by a divorce or break-up.  The last n.o. funeral I went to, 1990,  I left during the "sermon."  A lady deaconess, as she called herself, went on and on about the deceased's wonderful life and how he was in heaven.  She'd seen him for the first time at the wake the night before, and was being PAID to eulogize him.  The sad facts were that the man lived a less than wonderful life, had no use for God and His Church, deserted his legitimate wife and children, and was highly unlikely to have been in heaven.  I told others I felt ill--true--went to the restroom and went directly home.  The way I see it, if the person or persons getting married or buried have no contact with me normally, I see no "grave reason" to be present.  Over the last two decades, my family has scattered, haven't married,  haven't had children, or have had children outside marriage. The "children" don't care about me.  Their "children" don't know I exist.  The quotation marks refer to adult-children.  These days, if I find out about a marriage, birth or death, it is usually months or even years after the fact.  Depending upon whom or what, I might send a card.  Kind of sad, isn't it?  For myself, I'm unlikely to marry.  If I do, I'll be satisfied with my husband, two witnesses and the priest.  I really don't care who attends my funeral, so long as I have a Mass and am buried, not burned up or freeze-dried!  If the priest himself buries me in some secret location, that'll be fine.  God knows where to find me.  The state of my soul is much more important than who comes to my see my corpse.  

    "Thus let me live, unseen, unknown,
    Thus unlammented, let me die.
    Steal from the world, and not a stone
    Tell where I lie."           ~Alexander Pope, 'Ode on Solitude'
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  

    Online Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #10 on: August 16, 2013, 05:24:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    If your entire family were novus ordo, and you were the only true Catholic left, and you had already told almost all of them the truth and that none of them are Catholic, and, say, your grandpa or even your mom or brother were to die, would you go to the canonization mess or the funeral?


    The law deals with what is allowed, and, per the law, so long as there is no danger of scandal, that there is no participation, and that it is done for a grave reason-- it is allowed.  I think that you are ignoring what is a very thorough list of qualifications for attendance to be allowed and are reading something else that isn't actually there.

    The question is not 'would you go?'  The question is can you, according to the law of the Church, attend?  And if so, under what circuмstances?  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Matto

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    « Reply #11 on: August 16, 2013, 05:32:19 PM »
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  • I learned that it was OK to attend weddings and funerals of non-Catholics as long as you don't actively participate. I guess this is the law that says so. Knowing this, I attended a wedding of one of my cousins who was a member of a schismatic church. I just stood in the back and watched and didn't participate in any way.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Cathedra

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    « Reply #12 on: August 16, 2013, 05:36:57 PM »
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  • So, the canon says that it can only be tolerated for a grave reason and only with permission of the Bishop.

    But you see now how people have posted here saying how they were taught it was ok to go to these things as long as you didn't actively participate, for no grave reason and without any permission from a Bishop.

    That's not what the canon says but this is what was being taught before.

    Online Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #13 on: August 16, 2013, 06:08:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    So, the canon says that it can only be tolerated for a grave reason and only with permission of the Bishop.

    But you see now how people have posted here saying how they were taught it was ok to go to these things as long as you didn't actively participate, for no grave reason and without any permission from a Bishop.

    That's not what the canon says but this is what was being taught before.


    That's probably because most people don't have access to a bishop who can tell them.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline songbird

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    « Reply #14 on: August 16, 2013, 06:44:29 PM »
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  • Frances:  what you posted is so true for myself, but I am married, with children ages 27-39.  Two are traditional and the others nothing at this point. But, I have a mother age 82 and I dread going from AZ to IN for a funeral.  My dad died 30 years ago and my mom remarried 5 years after his death to a twice divorced man in front of my aunts Unitarian minister!  My brother did the same and made it a twosome!  Now, my mom told me that the priest told my mother that there was a way to marry this man and still be in good standings of the church. (it was rigid)  The NO priest says go get your marriage blessed, (HA) and then I will put in for his annulments and then come and go to confession and remarry.  My mom celebrates her anniversary of the first civil and not of the church. She is not sorry in my mind.  I brought it to her attention and she told me it was her business.  

    Honestly, I don't want to step foot in a NO, never.  I told my siblings my views and they are old enough to know better. We were all baptized catholic and brought up in that way!  My siblings certainly hate my views.  I told my children that this man is not your step-grandpa in the eyes of God.

    So, I feel that IF I go home, and I have not been there in 13 years, I would go to the burial and the viewing and that is it.  To me it would be a waste of money and time to go, for I would not plan to stick around, besides, it would only bring more grief to my siblings, I think.

    What do you think of my thoughts?