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Author Topic: "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"  (Read 3069 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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"Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
« on: September 06, 2013, 06:21:57 AM »
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  • http://www.novusordowatch.org/wire/liberalism-is-a-sin.htm

    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"


    The following is an excerpt from the 1886 book Liberalism is a Sin by Fr. Felix Sarda y Salvany. It was endorsed and praised by the Vatican's Sacred Congregation of the Index under Pope Leo XIII. The book exposes the ideas and tactics of the Modernists, called Liberals at the time, and we cannot recommend it highly enough. In fact, one may say that this book completely destroys many fundamental ideas of the bogus Second Vatican Council (1962-65) and the new religion it engendered (which we call the Novus Ordo Religion). The excerpt below is Chapter 32 of the book, which specifically addresses the objection that a layman cannot discover heresy on his own, and/or cannot accuse another of being a heretic. Nothing could be further from the truth.


    [Begin Excerpt]
    CHAPTER 32 Liberalism and Authority in Particular Cases

    How is one to tell on his own authority who or what is Liberal, without having recourse to a definitive decision of the teaching Church? When a good Catholic accuses anyone of Liberalism or attacks and unmasks Liberal sophisms, the accused immediately seeks refuge in a challenge of the accuser's authority: "And pray, who are you to charge me and my journal with Liberalism? Who made you a master in Israel to declare who is or who is not a good Catholic? And is it from you that I must take out a patent on Catholicity?" Such is the last resort of the tainted Catholic on finding himself pushed to the wall. How then are we to answer this opposition? Upon this point, is the theology of Liberal Catholics sound? That we may accuse any person or writing of Liberalism, is it necessary to have recourse to a special judgment of the Church upon this particular person or this particular writing? By no means.

    If this Liberal paradox were true, it would furnish Liberals with a very efficacious weapon with which, practically speaking, to annul all the Church's condemnations of Liberalism.

    The Church alone possesses supreme doctrinal magistery in fact and in right, juris et facti; her sovereign authority is personified in the Pope. To him alone belongs the right of pronouncing the final, decisive and solemn sentence. But this does not exclude other judgments less authoritative but very weighty, which cannot be despised and even ought to bind the Christian conscience. Of this kind are:

    1. judgments of the Bishops in their respective dioceses.

    2. judgments of pastors in their parishes.

    3. judgments of directors of consciences.

    4. judgments of theologians consulted by the lay faithful.

    These judgments are of course not infallible, but they are entitled to great consideration and ought to be binding in proportion to the authority of those who give them, in the gradation we have mentioned. But it is not against judgments of this character that Liberals hurl the peremptory challenge we wish particularly to consider. There is another factor in this matter that is entitled to respect, and that is:

    5. The judgment of simple human reason, duly enlightened.

    Yes, human reason, to speak after the manner of theologians, has a theological place in matters of religion. Faith dominates reason, which ought to be subordinated to faith in everything. But it is altogether false to pretend that reason can do nothing, that it has no function at all in matters of faith; it is false to pretend that the inferior light, illumined by God in the human understanding, cannot shine at all because it does not shine as powerfully or as clearly as the superior light. Yes, the faithful are permitted and even commanded to give a reason for their faith, to draw out its consequences, to make applications of it, to deduce parallels and analogies from it. It is thus by use of their reason that the faithful are enabled to suspect and measure the orthodoxy of any new doctrine presented to them, by comparing it with a doctrine already defined. If it be not in accord, they can combat it as bad, and justly stigmatize as bad the book or journal which sustains it. They cannot of course define it ex cathedra, but they can lawfully hold it as perverse and declare it such, warn others against it, raise the cry of alarm and strike the first blow against it. The faithful layman can do all this, and has done it at all times with the applause of the Church. Nor in so doing does he make himself the pastor of the flock, nor even its humblest attendant; he simply serves it as a watchdog who gives the alarm. Opportet allatrare canes "It behooves watchdogs to bark," very opportunely said a great Spanish Bishop in reference to such occasions.

    Is not perchance the part played by human reason so understood by those zealous prelates who on a thousand occasions exhort the faithful to refrain from the reading of bad journals and works, without specially pointing them out? Thus do they show their conviction that reason, this natural criterion, illumined by faith, is sufficient to enable the faithful to apply well-known doctrines to such matters.

    Does the Index of Forbidden Books itself give the title of every forbidden book? Do we not find under the rubric of "General Rules of the Index" certain principles according to which good Catholics should guide themselves in forming their judgment upon books not mentioned in the Index, but which each reader is expected to apply at his own discretion? Of what use would be the rule of faith and morals if in every particular case the faithful could not of themselves make the immediate application, or if they were constantly obliged to consult the Pope or the diocesan pastor? Just as the general rule of morality is the law in accordance with which each one squares his own conscience (dictamen practicuм--"practical judgment") in making particular applications of this general rule (subject to correction if erroneous), so the general rule of faith, which is the infallible authority of the Church, is and ought to be in consonance with every particular judgment formed in making concrete applications--subject, of course, to correction and retraction in the event of [a] mistake in so applying it. It would be rendering the superior rule of faith useless, absurd and impossible to require the supreme authority of the Church to make its special and immediate application in every case and upon every occasion which calls it forth.

    This would be a species of brutal and satanic Jansenism, like that of the followers of the unhappy Bishop of Ypres, who exacted, for the reception of the Sacraments, such dispositions as would make it impossible for men to profit by that which was plainly intended and instituted for them by Jesus Christ Himself.

    The legal rigorism invoked by the Liberalists in matters pertaining to faith is as absurd as the ascetic rigorism once preached at Port Royal [the seat of the Jansenist heresy]; it would result even more disastrously. If you doubt this, look around you. The greatest rigorists on this point are the most hardened sectaries of the Liberal school. But how [to] explain this apparent contradiction? It is easily explained, if we only reflect that nothing could be more convenient for Liberalism than to put this legal muzzle upon the lips and the pens of their most determined adversaries. It would be in truth a great triumph for them, under the pretext that no one except the Pope and the bishops could speak with the least authority, and thus to impose silence upon the lay champions of the Faith, such as were DeMaistre, Cortes, Veuillot, Ward, Lucas and McMaster, who once bore, and others who now bear, the banner of the Faith so boldly and unflinchingly against its most insidious foes.

    Liberalism would like to see such crusaders disarmed and would prefer above all to succeed in getting the Church herself to do the disarming.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #1 on: September 06, 2013, 10:29:03 AM »
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  • How many Souls have Liberals saved.  It is a theological Zero.

    That is a judgment that I can make in good conscience.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #2 on: September 06, 2013, 11:14:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
    How many Souls have Liberals saved.  It is a theological Zero.

    That is a judgment that I can make in good conscience.


    Well stated.  At least not intentionally.  Some may be saved by listening to a liberal's "logic" and run the other way.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Midas Welby

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #3 on: September 06, 2013, 09:03:47 PM »
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  • I think we should be careful to refer to "Liberalism is a Sin" as a BOOKLET (rather than a book).  Not for pedantic reasons, but for a practical reason - people generally are lazy; to suggest they read a "book" produces more reluctance in people than if they were to consider picking up merely a "booklet". It is a superb work to try to put in the hands of Catholics.


    Offline Stephen Francis

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #4 on: September 06, 2013, 09:28:00 PM »
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  • +JMJ+

    Holy Scripture tells us that "if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged". (First Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians, chapter 11, verse 31.)

    We must rightly, strictly and with the fear of God judge ourselves NOT to be the interpreters of Scripture, because most of us have not that charism, nor to be the arbiters of which and how many blessings should be bestowed upon us for our obedience. Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself tells us in the holy Gospel that we, should we be praised in Heaven for our obedience, should simply reply that we have done what we were commanded to do.

    The "liberal Catholic [sic]", so called, does not exist. One is either obedient to and subservient to the voice of Holy Church in Her inviolate Tradition or one is a Protestant apostate who has taken it upon themselves to privately interpret and publicly apply the rewards and/or judgments given in Holy Scripture.

    If anyone were to approach Scripture (by way of analogy) as its own free-standing edifice, its own independent source of true CONCEPTS, they could seemingly interpret those CONCEPTS and apply their apparent MEANINGS according to their individual assessment of the times in which they lived.

    This, of course, is Protestantism defined. Scripture is NOT, to the Protestant, a collection of the writings of Church leaders who were defending dogma and righting abuses in an already-existing Church. Rather, it is a collection of writings of people who were leaders of men by some mysterious "calling" on their lives, whereby they were attempting to frame and develop their nascent concept of a church.

    Thus, Scripture and the solemn and infallible Tradition of which it is part, are not COMMANDMENTS or FACTS which must be obeyed and lived as reality. They are merely IDEAS from God's perspective that are going to mean different things to each sovereign and autonomous human being.

    Liberalism begins with the notion that Scripture is non-specific in its WORDS as well as in their MEANINGS. Ask the average liberal what Scripture says, and you're almost always bound to get a synopsis of the INTENT or SENSE or MEANING of a passage rather than a verbatim QUOTE of the words.

    It's no different than using a phrase like "the right to choose". The "right to choose" almost ALWAYS necessarily means "the right to abort". If they didn't want to abort, if they thought abortion was wrong, they wouldn't admit to the possibility of a "choice". Ergo, the phrase "to choose" means "have chosen in theory; will choose in practice as soon as necessary/possible".

    Liberalism is a sin precisely because the liberal raises the same old question that the serpent raised: "Did God really say...".

    If the answer is, "God said" THESE WORDS, then obedience is bound to follow. If the answer is "let's examine what this teachable moment means to ME personally", it's piling iniquity upon iniquity.

    Kyrie eleison.

    Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!

    Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

    This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of godliness are overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and the chief seat [the Papacy] is now openly proposed as a rewar


    Offline songbird

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #5 on: September 06, 2013, 10:05:31 PM »
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  • You will know them by their fruits.

    Offline ThomisticPhilosopher

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #6 on: September 07, 2013, 06:37:41 PM »
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  • Could not have it put it better then the good Father that wrote that book.

    Deo gratias, for such treasures.

    Does anyone know any other books that talks about Liberalism and condemnations of it. Thanks I would appreciate it.
    https://keybase.io/saintaquinas , has all my other verified accounts including PGP key plus BTC address for bitcoin tip jar. A.M.D.G.

    Offline Midas Welby

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #7 on: September 08, 2013, 10:14:22 AM »
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  • Many seem to get confused about judging HERESY and judging a HERETIC. These are not the same thing.

    It is easy to judge that HERESY exists as coming from the mouth or pen of a person. We can judge that something is dangerous to Faith or Morals.

    Strictly speaking, a HERETIC is a person who willfully rejects something the Church teaches. Whenever you see the word "heretic" by itself, it means a formal heretic.

    So, only the Church can judge a man to be a "heretic". The judgment follows from the person refusing to listen to the admonition from the superior, religious authority. That determines his will.

    However, if we judge there is something dangerous to Faith or morals coming from the mouth or pen of a person, we have a moral obligation to stay away from the danger. We can only refer to that person as a material heretic.

    I am a so-called SV, and have noticed that many SVs get mixed up on this. Some see it makes sense but fear strikes them upon the realization that a pope has no superior, religious authority. They fear that this would prevent them from judging that a man is no longer pope, because a pope must be a (formal) heretic to cease being pope!  

    The answer is, actually, easy:

    While everyone in the world except for a pope has a superior, a pope has something that nobody else in the world has - the promise of infallibility. This promise of God is the dogmatic truth that the Church will be divinely prevented from accidentally promulgating anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching. Anything....because the Church is holy & divine.

    Therefore, if we see a man claiming to be pope put forth anything harmful in the Church's law, liturgy or teaching, we know the man could not be a true pope. It would be a dogmatic fact. However, as to judging his will to be evil, we would not have to go there because of the possibility the man was never a true pope to begin with. All we know is, now - that man is not a true pope.



    Offline Stubborn

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #8 on: September 08, 2013, 10:54:16 AM »
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  • Quote from: ThomisticPhilosopher
    Could not have it put it better then the good Father that wrote that book.

    Deo gratias, for such treasures.

    Does anyone know any other books that talks about Liberalism and condemnations of it. Thanks I would appreciate it.


    From Fr. Wathen's book:  Who Shall Ascend?

    Even though the heresies of our day are as numerous as there are truths to deny, in this book the main target will be Liberalism. For it is due to the heresy of Liberalism that most people who believe in Heaven and Hell have allowed their religious concepts to be seriously distorted. They have refashioned the image of God and developed for themselves a religion which suits their fancy.........




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #9 on: September 08, 2013, 12:00:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Midas Welby

    The answer is, actually, easy:

    While everyone in the world except for a pope has a superior, a pope has something that nobody else in the world has - the promise of infallibility. This promise of God is the dogmatic truth that the Church will be divinely prevented from accidentally promulgating anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching. Anything....because the Church is holy & divine.

    Therefore, if we see a man claiming to be pope put forth anything harmful in the Church's law, liturgy or teaching, we know the man could not be a true pope. It would be a dogmatic fact. However, as to judging his will to be evil, we would not have to go there because of the possibility the man was never a true pope to begin with. All we know is, now - that man is not a true pope.




    What you posted is not what the Church teaches.

    I certainly agree with you here - the Church will indeed be divinely prevented from accidentally or even purposely promulgating anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching.

    But - when you see anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching, *you know* that it is error, therefore *you know* that law, liturgy or teaching has not been divinely protected - therefore *you know* the errors do not enjoy the mark of papal infallibility.

    Any pope, no matter what, can in no way invoke his powers of infallibility to harm the Church or promulgate anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching.

    To sum up what I'm trying to say, I will edit your text as shown below:

    Therefore, if we see a man claiming to be pope put forth anything harmful in the Church's law, liturgy or teaching, we know the man could not be a true pope we know the man could not be invoking the power of papal infallibility.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Midas Welby

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #10 on: September 08, 2013, 04:45:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Midas Welby

    The answer is, actually, easy:

    While everyone in the world except for a pope has a superior, a pope has something that nobody else in the world has - the promise of infallibility. This promise of God is the dogmatic truth that the Church will be divinely prevented from accidentally promulgating anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching. Anything....because the Church is holy & divine.

    Therefore, if we see a man claiming to be pope put forth anything harmful in the Church's law, liturgy or teaching, we know the man could not be a true pope. It would be a dogmatic fact. However, as to judging his will to be evil, we would not have to go there because of the possibility the man was never a true pope to begin with. All we know is, now - that man is not a true pope.




    What you posted is not what the Church teaches.

    I certainly agree with you here - the Church will indeed be divinely prevented from accidentally or even purposely promulgating anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching.

    But - when you see anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching, *you know* that it is error, therefore *you know* that law, liturgy or teaching has not been divinely protected - therefore *you know* the errors do not enjoy the mark of papal infallibility.

    Any pope, no matter what, can in no way invoke his powers of infallibility to harm the Church or promulgate anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching.

    To sum up what I'm trying to say, I will edit your text as shown below:

    Therefore, if we see a man claiming to be pope put forth anything harmful in the Church's law, liturgy or teaching, we know the man could not be a true pope we know the man could not be invoking the power of papal infallibility.




    Your thinking on this is not in accord with Catholic teaching.

    The divine promise of infallibility does not prevent a pope from "purposely" promoting error against Faith or Morals, because if he purposely does so, then he already ceased to be pope & Catholic by his very will before promulgating it publicly, and the promise of infallibility doesn't apply to a non-pope. Therefore, such promulgation is done by a man, not a pope.

    There is no such thing as willfully "invoking" infallibility; as if a pope could write up canon law, not invoke infallibility, and then there appear accidental error against faith or morals in that law to the whole Church. Nonsense. That is heretical.  The very fact that he wills to promulgate official law to the Church AUTOMATICALLY invokes infallibility. He has no choice in the matter when committing certain official acts in the name of the divine Church.




    Online Mithrandylan

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #11 on: September 08, 2013, 05:02:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Midas Welby
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Midas Welby

    The answer is, actually, easy:

    While everyone in the world except for a pope has a superior, a pope has something that nobody else in the world has - the promise of infallibility. This promise of God is the dogmatic truth that the Church will be divinely prevented from accidentally promulgating anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching. Anything....because the Church is holy & divine.

    Therefore, if we see a man claiming to be pope put forth anything harmful in the Church's law, liturgy or teaching, we know the man could not be a true pope. It would be a dogmatic fact. However, as to judging his will to be evil, we would not have to go there because of the possibility the man was never a true pope to begin with. All we know is, now - that man is not a true pope.




    What you posted is not what the Church teaches.

    I certainly agree with you here - the Church will indeed be divinely prevented from accidentally or even purposely promulgating anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching.

    But - when you see anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching, *you know* that it is error, therefore *you know* that law, liturgy or teaching has not been divinely protected - therefore *you know* the errors do not enjoy the mark of papal infallibility.

    Any pope, no matter what, can in no way invoke his powers of infallibility to harm the Church or promulgate anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching.

    To sum up what I'm trying to say, I will edit your text as shown below:

    Therefore, if we see a man claiming to be pope put forth anything harmful in the Church's law, liturgy or teaching, we know the man could not be a true pope we know the man could not be invoking the power of papal infallibility.




    Your thinking on this is not in accord with Catholic teaching.

    The divine promise of infallibility does not prevent a pope from "purposely" promoting error against Faith or Morals, because if he purposely does so, then he already ceased to be pope & Catholic by his very will before promulgating it publicly, and the promise of infallibility doesn't apply to a non-pope. Therefore, such promulgation is done by a man, not a pope.

    There is no such thing as willfully "invoking" infallibility; as if a pope could write up canon law, not invoke infallibility, and then there appear accidental error against faith or morals in that law to the whole Church. Nonsense. That is heretical.  The very fact that he wills to promulgate official law to the Church AUTOMATICALLY invokes infallibility. He has no choice in the matter when committing certain official acts in the name of the divine Church.




    This is all true, but really, it's a heavy and convoluted way of going about to prove the point.  Much easier:

    (1) A heretic is not a member of the Catholic Church
    (2) N is a heretic
    (3) N is not a member of the Catholic Church
    (4) If N is not a member of the Catholic Church, N cannot possibly be the head of the Catholic Church

    The only part of this syllogism that needs to be proved is (2) (from which (3) will follow).  The rest is very, very basic Catholicism 101.  

    We don't even need to discuss whether or not the heresy is part of the pope's exercise in infallibility, as the fact of the heresy itself settles the matter, at least factually if not legally.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Stubborn

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #12 on: September 08, 2013, 05:57:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Midas Welby
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Midas Welby

    The answer is, actually, easy:

    While everyone in the world except for a pope has a superior, a pope has something that nobody else in the world has - the promise of infallibility. This promise of God is the dogmatic truth that the Church will be divinely prevented from accidentally promulgating anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching. Anything....because the Church is holy & divine.

    Therefore, if we see a man claiming to be pope put forth anything harmful in the Church's law, liturgy or teaching, we know the man could not be a true pope. It would be a dogmatic fact. However, as to judging his will to be evil, we would not have to go there because of the possibility the man was never a true pope to begin with. All we know is, now - that man is not a true pope.




    What you posted is not what the Church teaches.

    I certainly agree with you here - the Church will indeed be divinely prevented from accidentally or even purposely promulgating anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching.

    But - when you see anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching, *you know* that it is error, therefore *you know* that law, liturgy or teaching has not been divinely protected - therefore *you know* the errors do not enjoy the mark of papal infallibility.

    Any pope, no matter what, can in no way invoke his powers of infallibility to harm the Church or promulgate anything harmful in her official law, liturgy or teaching.

    To sum up what I'm trying to say, I will edit your text as shown below:

    Therefore, if we see a man claiming to be pope put forth anything harmful in the Church's law, liturgy or teaching, we know the man could not be a true pope we know the man could not be invoking the power of papal infallibility.




    Your thinking on this is not in accord with Catholic teaching.

    The divine promise of infallibility does not prevent a pope from "purposely" promoting error against Faith or Morals, because if he purposely does so, then he already ceased to be pope & Catholic by his very will before promulgating it publicly, and the promise of infallibility doesn't apply to a non-pope. Therefore, such promulgation is done by a man, not a pope.

    There is no such thing as willfully "invoking" infallibility; as if a pope could write up canon law, not invoke infallibility, and then there appear accidental error against faith or morals in that law to the whole Church. Nonsense. That is heretical.  The very fact that he wills to promulgate official law to the Church AUTOMATICALLY invokes infallibility. He has no choice in the matter when committing certain official acts in the name of the divine Church.



    You are missing the point.

    The pope is a man, he is not infallible. Popolaters think every word and action of a pope is infallible, but they neglect the reality that because he is a man, he is perfectly capable of promulgating error - what he cannot do is promulgate error infallibly. I think SVism disagrees with this.

    Obviously when error is promulgated, it is not protected by the dogma of infallibility. The errors which have been promulgated is all the proof we need to know papal infallibility was not involved.
    As you posted, SVism disagrees with this since they believe whatever a pope promulgates will automatically be infallible. But there are Church teachings that sufficiently refute this belief.

    You are thinking a pope is incapable of promulgating error due to his position and his infallibility, without considering that  errors can never involve papal infallibility in the first place.

    You also think that when a pope does promulgate heretical errors, he ceases to be pope - or perhaps he never was pope, but this is pure theological opinion which may or may not be true since  there is no Church teaching to back up this theory, nor is there any means of proving it or, if true, of doing anything about it.

    When I mentioned invoking the power of infallibility, I was thinking along the lines of  Trent's opening declaration as regards the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass Session XXII "...being instructed by the illumination of the Holy Ghost":

    The sacred and holy, ecuмenical and general Synod of Trent--lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same Legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein--to the end that the ancient, complete, and in every part perfect faith and doctrine touching the great mystery of the Eucharist may be retained in the holy Catholic Church; and may, all errors and heresies being repelled, be preserved in its own purity; (the Synod) instructed by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, teaches, declares; and decrees what follows, to be preached to the faithful, on the subject of the Eucharist, considered as being a true and singular sacrifice.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #13 on: September 09, 2013, 06:10:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan


    This is all true, but really, it's a heavy and convoluted way of going about to prove the point.  Much easier:

    (1) A heretic is not a member of the Catholic Church
    (2) N is a heretic
    (3) N is not a member of the Catholic Church
    (4) If N is not a member of the Catholic Church, N cannot possibly be the head of the Catholic Church

    The only part of this syllogism that needs to be proved is (2) (from which (3) will follow).  The rest is very, very basic Catholicism 101.  

    We don't even need to discuss whether or not the heresy is part of the pope's exercise in infallibility, as the fact of the heresy itself settles the matter, at least factually if not legally.  



    If your syllogism is true, then #1 at least applies, not only to popes, but to all clergy everywhere  - even to everyone since the time of the Apostles and till the end of time - if not, why not?

    For example, the Archbishop (later Cardinal) of Boston back in the 1940s was a public eccuмaniac who aggressively promoted dialogue with Jєωs and prots and  etc.

    By the time V2 was in session, he was already a Cardinal - - - according to Wikipedia: At the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965) Cushing played a vital role in drafting Nostra Aetate, the docuмent that officially absolved the Jєωs of deicide charge. His emotional comments during debates over the drafts were echoed in the final version:

    Not only that: "In an unprecedented gesture of ecuмenism, he even encouraged Catholics to attend Billy Graham's crusades"


    According to the above syllogism, the cleric was heretical therefore not Catholic therefore held no office.
    Is this correct? - if not, please explain why not.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Midas Welby

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    "Who are YOU to judge who is a Heretic?"
    « Reply #14 on: September 09, 2013, 06:22:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    This is all true, but really, it's a heavy and convoluted way of going about to prove the point.  Much easier:

    (1) A heretic is not a member of the Catholic Church
    (2) N is a heretic
    (3) N is not a member of the Catholic Church
    (4) If N is not a member of the Catholic Church, N cannot possibly be the head of the Catholic Church

    The only part of this syllogism that needs to be proved is (2) (from which (3) will follow).  The rest is very, very basic Catholicism 101.  

    We don't even need to discuss whether or not the heresy is part of the pope's exercise in infallibility, as the fact of the heresy itself settles the matter, at least factually if not legally.  


    You know why yours is "easier"? Because you avoid explaining the details of #2. I have given the details.

    You throw in the words factually and legally, but they really mean nothing without an explanation. Besides, a pope is not subject to canon law, so the mention of legality cannot be part of the explanation.

    You consider what I wrote true, but heavy. Make it lighter by perusing it again and really comprehending it. It does explain it.