Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: parentsfortruth on July 29, 2013, 08:49:30 AM
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29 July 2013 Last updated at 09:14 ET
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23489702#TWEET837994
(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/I46u.nAvlKs8NqQCykww3w--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQyMTtweG9mZj01MDtweW9mZj0wO3E9ODU7dz03NDk-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/a9b9024f1e52c719380f6a706700b72d.jpg)
Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gαy people?
The Pope's position on gαy people appears to contrast with that of his predecessor
Pope Francis has said gαy people should not be marginalised but integrated into society.
Speaking to reporters on a flight back from Brazil, he reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ acts were sinful, but ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ orientation was not.
"If a person is gαy and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge him?"
He also said he wanted a greater role for women in the Church, but insisted they could not be priests.
The Pope arrived back in Rome on Monday after a week-long tour of Brazil - his first trip abroad as pontiff - which climaxed with a huge gathering on Rio de Janeiro's Copacabana beach for a world Catholic youth festival.
Festival organisers estimated it attracted more than three million people.
His remarks on gαy people are being seen as much more conciliatory than his predecessor's position on the issue.
Pope Benedict XVI signed a docuмent in 2005 that said men with deep-rooted ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ tendencies should not be priests.
Pope Francis said gαy clergymen should be forgiven and their sins forgotten.
gαy 'lobbying'
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well," Pope Francis said in a wide-ranging 80-minute long interview with Vatican journalists.
"It says they should not be marginalised because of this but that they must be integrated into society."
But he condemned what he described as lobbying by gαy people.
"The problem is not having this orientation," he said. "We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem."
On the role of women in the Church, he said: "We cannot limit the role of women in the Church to altar girls or the president of a charity, there must be more.
"But with regards to the ordination of women, the Church has spoken and says no... That door is closed."
Answering questions about the troubled Vatican bank, he said the institution must become "honest and transparent" and that he would listen to advice on whether it could be reformed or should be shut down altogether.
"I don't know what will become of the bank. Some say it is better that is a bank, others that it should be a charitable fund and others say close it," he said.
'Undisciplined'
Before leaving Brazil, Pope Francis gave a highly unusual one-to-one interview to a Brazilian TV programme.
The interview was shown on TV Globo's high-profile Sunday night docuмentary programme Fantastico, broadcast not long after the Pope departed for Rome.
The Pope was asked about the moment on his visit when his driver took a wrong turn and his vehicle was surrounded by crowds.
"I don't feel afraid," he answered. "I know that no-one dies before their time.
"I don't want to see these people who have such a great heart from behind a glass box. The two security teams [from the Vatican and Brazil] worked very well. But I know that I am undisciplined in that respect."
Asked about the recent protests by young people on the streets of Brazil, the Pope said: "The young person is essentially a non-conformist, and this is very beautiful.
"It is necessary to listen to young people, give them places to express themselves and to be careful that they aren't manipulated."
Asked about his simple lifestyle and use of a small car, he said it wasn't a good example when a priest had the latest model of a car or a top brand.
"At this moment I believe God is asking us for more simplicity," he added.
:barf:
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This is what happens to the Catholic Church when its traditions are stripped and changed to the lukewarm Vatican II church.
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As a side note, I wish one of the "jourrnalists" would have asked him to elaborate on his comment concerning "masonic lobbies".......
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As a side note, I wish one of the "jourrnalists" would have asked him to elaborate on his comment concerning "masonic lobbies".......
Really
Incidentally, I can imagine the neocats and neotrads painting this interview as:
"POPE UPHOLDS CATHOLIC TEACHING ON gαyS, WOMEN; CONDEMNS MASONS"
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I came here JUST for this. Thank you.
And the article on HuffPo (HoPo (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/pope-francis-gαys_n_3669635.html)) goes into more detail about the specifics of his current appointment who made headlines last week. I'm too mad to quote, but basically:
• the media shouldn't be looking at anyone's NON-CRIMINAL sɛҳuąƖ BEHAVIOR.
Okay, nevermind that clergy/priests shouldn't be HAVING sɛҳuąƖ behavior, who is he to tell the secular press what to look at?
Imo, this is anti-christ bad. The secular press is pointing out what a bunch of hypocrites those with "Holy Orders" are, and the Pope says, "Yeah so? Bite me."
• He joked about the "gαy lobby". Said it would be wrong IF... [it existed, but it doesn't]. No wolves in HIS Vatican.
• He PERSONALLY looked into the scandalous matter reported about his latest Msgr. gαy (meaning he ASKED his dining buddy Ricca if he was actively participating in gαy stuff), and found nothing (Ricca said 'nope, I'm eating dinner') —and even noted that anything that had happened in the past was the past
:mad:
So tell me WHY Pope Honorius, well-loved in his day, dead, and buried for DECADES, was anathematized and excommunicated? I mean, if "the past doesn't matter"??? ??? ???
Pope Francis, making this guy's case:
(http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/POPE.jpg)
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Francis is starting to make Paul VI look like a staunch defender of the Faith.
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Francis is starting to make Paul VI look like a staunch defender of the Faith.
I was thinking something similar...that this new Pope makes JP2 look almost traditional. I think that Francis may not be very bright. How could he make those comments and not know that the media would pick them up and make them into headlines? It's all very distressing. And on top of the Franciscans of the Immaculate not being able to celebrate the TLM without permission. I partly blame the cardinals who elected him.
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Francis is starting to make Paul VI look like a staunch defender of the Faith.
I was thinking something similar...that this new Pope makes JP2 look almost traditional. I think that Francis may not be very bright. How could he make those comments and not know that the media would pick them up and make them into headlines? It's all very distressing. And on top of the Franciscans of the Immaculate not being able to celebrate the TLM without permission. I partly blame the cardinals who elected him.
I think he knows exactly what he's doing. He's crazy like a fox - much like the fox Our Lord referred to in St. Luke 13:32.
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Francis is starting to make Paul VI look like a staunch defender of the Faith.
I was thinking something similar...that this new Pope makes JP2 look almost traditional. I think that Francis may not be very bright. How could he make those comments and not know that the media would pick them up and make them into headlines? It's all very distressing. And on top of the Franciscans of the Immaculate not being able to celebrate the TLM without permission. I partly blame the cardinals who elected him.
I think he knows exactly what he's doing. He's crazy like a fox - much like the fox Our Lord referred to in St. Luke 13:32.
You're probably right. I always like to give the Popes the benefit of the doubt, but that's increasingly difficult to do. I feel like the cause of tradition within the Church is being set back 10 - 20 years.
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Just in case anyone hadn't figured it out already, it is now clear beyond any doubt why Cdl. Mahony was so ecstatic when the current putative pope was picked.
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The man sitting on his porch in white looks much more papal than Pope Francis.
We're just seeing the beginning.
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The comment about young people being non-conformist is laugh out loud ridiculous. Everything about the youth in the WYD was conformity.
Contemporary youth is conformity on steroids. They even rebel in identical manner.
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Integration into the Church doesn't mean approval of immoral lifestyles or ordaining "gαy" priests tommarow. Forgiving and forgetting the sins of the the sinful priests is good, of course the adage "go and sin no more" still applies.
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Effeminate behavior is a vice.
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"If a person is gαy and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge him?"
Seeks God and has good will implies at least a commitment to live in chastity.
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the media shouldn't be looking at anyone's NON-CRIMINAL sɛҳuąƖ BEHAVIOR
Too much attention to this falls under the sin of detraction. The same God who said "Do not fornicate," also said, "Do not pass judgement."
"The judgement you pass on others will be the judgement that is passed on to you" - Jesus
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Poche,
You gave gone of the deep end. I hope you can swim.
:heretic:
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Not sure when I can get a signature here, but if I could have one, it would be this:
To adhere to a false Bishop of Rome is to be out of communion with the Church. —St. Cyprian
poche: a Pope doesn't ask "who am I to judge". Did St. Peter just pat Ananias and Sapphira on the back and say, "Hey, I forgive you, your lying is in the past, who cares? Who am I to judge? Just, go and sin no more!"
Absolutely not! They got FRIED ON THE SPOT. Torched! Same bat time, same bat channel (That is, Frank::St. Peter as Ricca::Ananias/Sapphira; when Ananias/Sapphira's past came to light, the H.S. torched these pagans through Peter on the spot. You might question the historicity of Acts, but we KNOW St. Peter wouldn't have patted Ricca on the back and said, "Eh, it's history; fuggedaboutit!"
And there have been loads of righteous Popes who knew real humility (saying the unpopular but truthful thing to save the few who might hear them); who didn't need to win a popularity contest and at the cost of their earthly lives stood by the Truth and the Holy Catholic Faith.
Is it okay to be gαy? To act on it? To overturn your Holy Orders and practice AN ABOMINATION to the scandal of a whole country? No, that's NOT okay, and if a pope says it's okay, he is not part of the Church and is definitely no head of it.
Frank showed his hand.
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That horrible crime, on account of which corrupt and obscene cities were destroyed by fire through divine condemnation, causes us most bitter sorrow and shocks our mind, impelling us to repress such a crime with the greatest possible zeal.
Quite opportunely the Fifth Lateran Council [1512-1517] issued this decree: "Let any member of the clergy caught in that vice against nature, given that the wrath of God falls over the sons of perfidy, be removed from the clerical order or forced to do penance in a monastery" (chap. 4, X, V, 31).
So that the contagion of such a grave offense may not advance with greater audacity by taking advantage of impunity, which is the greatest incitement to sin, and so as to more severely punish the clerics who are guilty of this nefarious crime and who are not frightened by the death of their souls, we determine that they should be handed over to the severity of the secular authority, which enforces civil law.
Therefore, wishing to pursue with greater rigor than we have exerted since the beginning of our pontificate, we establish that any priest or member of the clergy, either secular or regular, who commits such an execrable crime, by force of the present law be deprived of every clerical privilege, of every post, dignity and ecclesiastical benefit, and having been degraded by an ecclesiastical judge, let him be immediately delivered to the secular authority to be put to death, as mandated by law as the fitting punishment for laymen who have sunk into this abyss.
-Pope St. Pius V
http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/n009rp_ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖPriests.htm
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Pope Francis, making this guy's case:
(http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/POPE.jpg)
I would rather follow "Pope" Michael than Pope Francis. At least "Pope" Michael is Catholic.
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I am not a sede-vacantist.* I cannot judge and pronounce the Sovereign Pontiff as a heretic. I am a mere layman and I leave that to a future, traditional Pope and his cardinals. I prefer to consider Francis as God's Vicar on Earth, of course it his duty to condemn the filthy vice of sodomy. Nevertheless, despite the already vigorous efforts of the 'conservatives' to splash on the white-wash, his is another disgraceful Conciliar display - the whole of WYD has been awash with 'em, it's one as of itself.
*I would quote either Bp. Williamson's Idaho conference or Bp. Tissier here:
Fideliter: Yet Archbishop Lefebvre was very reserved about the situation of Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.
Bishop Tissier de Mallerais: That is correct. He said more than once about these popes-about Paul VI from 1976, and about John Paul II, after the prayer meeting of religions at Assisi in 1986 - that he did not exclude the possibility that these popes were not popes, that one day the Church will have to examine their situation, that a future pope and his cardinals might have to pronounce the finding that these men had not been popes. But for himself, he preferred to consider them as popes. This supposes that he did not feel that he possessed sufficient knowledge of the pertinent facts nor the necessary power for making such a judgment. This is of critical importance to bear in mind.
For instance, the abrupt logic of a Fr. Guérard des Lauriers led to the former conclusion: "The pope promulgated a heresy [with religious liberty], hence he is a heretic, hence he is not formally pope." But the wisdom of Archbishop Lefebvre made him feel, to the contrary, that the premises of this reasoning were as shaky as the authority that formulated it, be it that of a theologian or even a bishop.
Fr. Morgan once said that the 'question was one to be answered in the future by a traditional Pope'. Hence, I prefer to consider Pope Francis as the Pope, I cannot pronounce on his status, having neither the knowledge nor the authority to do so, so I leave that matter for a future, traditional Pope to settle.
Poche - I would retract that were I you. You really have gone very much 'off the deep end'.
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If there weren't any resistance groups such as the SSPX and the CMRI, I think Pope Francis would make me go Orthodox.
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I just read it again and good grief it is appalling. What a stew. The Crisis in the Church is, of course, as bad as it has ever been and in point of fact it is worsening - the SSPX is divided, the Modernists in Rome have elected not only another Modernist but another Modernist who, I feel, is distinctly on the warpath. Mercifully, this sort of thing is torpedoeing the 'Indult' - now it's getting clearer again, Tradition or Modernism - and the possibility of a deal with the Roman Modernists.
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If there weren't any resistance groups such as the SSPX and the CMRI, I think Pope Francis would make me go Orthodox.
Pope Francis would find many in agreement with his own views in the Orthodox Church.
http://www.rferl.org/content/serbia-orthodox-church-bishop-orgies-rape-scandal/24965214.html
"The Serbian Orthodox Church has approved the resignation of a powerful cleric amid sex-scandal claims that culminated this week with the publication of a graphic video appearing to show him engaged in sɛҳuąƖ activity with young men. "
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Pope Francis would find many in agreement with his own views in the Orthodox Church.
Not surprising. Filth is spreading everywhere.
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What will be next? "Who am I to judge abortionists"?
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That horrible crime, on account of which corrupt and obscene cities were destroyed by fire through divine condemnation, causes us most bitter sorrow and shocks our mind, impelling us to repress such a crime with the greatest possible zeal.
Quite opportunely the Fifth Lateran Council [1512-1517] issued this decree: "Let any member of the clergy caught in that vice against nature, given that the wrath of God falls over the sons of perfidy, be removed from the clerical order or forced to do penance in a monastery" (chap. 4, X, V, 31).
So that the contagion of such a grave offense may not advance with greater audacity by taking advantage of impunity, which is the greatest incitement to sin, and so as to more severely punish the clerics who are guilty of this nefarious crime and who are not frightened by the death of their souls, we determine that they should be handed over to the severity of the secular authority, which enforces civil law.
Therefore, wishing to pursue with greater rigor than we have exerted since the beginning of our pontificate, we establish that any priest or member of the clergy, either secular or regular, who commits such an execrable crime, by force of the present law be deprived of every clerical privilege, of every post, dignity and ecclesiastical benefit, and having been degraded by an ecclesiastical judge, let him be immediately delivered to the secular authority to be put to death, as mandated by law as the fitting punishment for laymen who have sunk into this abyss.
-Pope St. Pius V
http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/n009rp_ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖPriests.htm
:applause:
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What will be next? "Who am I to judge abortionists"?
Willful murder is in the same category as this disgusting filth!
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That horrible crime, on account of which corrupt and obscene cities were destroyed by fire through divine condemnation, causes us most bitter sorrow and shocks our mind, impelling us to repress such a crime with the greatest possible zeal.
Quite opportunely the Fifth Lateran Council [1512-1517] issued this decree: "Let any member of the clergy caught in that vice against nature, given that the wrath of God falls over the sons of perfidy, be removed from the clerical order or forced to do penance in a monastery" (chap. 4, X, V, 31).
So that the contagion of such a grave offense may not advance with greater audacity by taking advantage of impunity, which is the greatest incitement to sin, and so as to more severely punish the clerics who are guilty of this nefarious crime and who are not frightened by the death of their souls, we determine that they should be handed over to the severity of the secular authority, which enforces civil law.
Therefore, wishing to pursue with greater rigor than we have exerted since the beginning of our pontificate, we establish that any priest or member of the clergy, either secular or regular, who commits such an execrable crime, by force of the present law be deprived of every clerical privilege, of every post, dignity and ecclesiastical benefit, and having been degraded by an ecclesiastical judge, let him be immediately delivered to the secular authority to be put to death, as mandated by law as the fitting punishment for laymen who have sunk into this abyss.
-Pope St. Pius V
http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/n009rp_ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖPriests.htm
:applause:
I reposted this on FB.
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"For what have I to do to judge them that are without? Do not you judge them that are within? For them that are without, God will judge. Put away the evil one from among yourselves."
1 Corinthians 5:12-13
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That horrible crime, on account of which corrupt and obscene cities were destroyed by fire through divine condemnation, causes us most bitter sorrow and shocks our mind, impelling us to repress such a crime with the greatest possible zeal.
Quite opportunely the Fifth Lateran Council [1512-1517] issued this decree: "Let any member of the clergy caught in that vice against nature, given that the wrath of God falls over the sons of perfidy, be removed from the clerical order or forced to do penance in a monastery" (chap. 4, X, V, 31).
So that the contagion of such a grave offense may not advance with greater audacity by taking advantage of impunity, which is the greatest incitement to sin, and so as to more severely punish the clerics who are guilty of this nefarious crime and who are not frightened by the death of their souls, we determine that they should be handed over to the severity of the secular authority, which enforces civil law.
Therefore, wishing to pursue with greater rigor than we have exerted since the beginning of our pontificate, we establish that any priest or member of the clergy, either secular or regular, who commits such an execrable crime, by force of the present law be deprived of every clerical privilege, of every post, dignity and ecclesiastical benefit, and having been degraded by an ecclesiastical judge, let him be immediately delivered to the secular authority to be put to death, as mandated by law as the fitting punishment for laymen who have sunk into this abyss.
-Pope St. Pius V
http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/n009rp_ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖPriests.htm
Saint Peter Damian wrote a book condemning ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ acts by priests. 'Book of Gomorrah' is worth reading if you have the time. Saint Peter Damian is considered a Doctor of the Church. He should be a saint that modern clergy turn to since he faced similar problems in his time. He is mostly ignored, though.
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Back in 1988 , Rome excommunicated archbishop Lefebvre for disobedience.
At the same time Rome protected rapists of children and other pervert priests who broke their vows of chastity.
There was forgiveness to perverts.
There was no forgiveness to traditional Catholics.
They punished good and rewarded evil. Rome is not Catholic.
Pope Francis is the Pope and he is supposed to preach against evil. He is lukewarm
Pope st Pope Pius V said that all the evils in the world was because of lukewarm Catholics.
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Francis is really beyond the pale of credulity. The sifting continues.
Francis is an absurdity, Benedict's (likely) forced resignation is not going to help the Jєωs.
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The legions of demons are all cheering and celebrating, while exclaiming, "gαy it up, man, gαy it up!" ..... "our father, Satan, wants more children's lives destroyed and severed from the Holy One's Church through pervert predation by our minions wearing the Roman collar."
(note: they do not say Jesus' name, instead, they say "Holy One's" because they tremble at the mention of His name.)
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:scratchchin:Think About It.
Since when does a Catholic priest, much less the pope, declare he hasn't the right to judge sin- when Christ Himself gives to priests that power? Also, since when does any Catholic, much less the pope, "search" for God when He has already proven Himself to be Jesus Christ? Can Francis be telling us the truth? That he really can't judge, and that he is "searching" for God? If so, think what that means.
:furtive:
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29 July 2013 Last updated at 09:14 ET
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23489702#TWEET837994
(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/I46u.nAvlKs8NqQCykww3w--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQyMTtweG9mZj01MDtweW9mZj0wO3E9ODU7dz03NDk-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/a9b9024f1e52c719380f6a706700b72d.jpg)
Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gαy people?
The Pope's position on gαy people appears to contrast with that of his predecessor
Pope Francis has said gαy people should not be marginalised but integrated into society.
Speaking to reporters on a flight back from Brazil, he reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ acts were sinful, but ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ orientation was not.
"If a person is gαy and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge him?"
He also said he wanted a greater role for women in the Church, but insisted they could not be priests.
The Pope arrived back in Rome on Monday after a week-long tour of Brazil - his first trip abroad as pontiff - which climaxed with a huge gathering on Rio de Janeiro's Copacabana beach for a world Catholic youth festival.
Festival organisers estimated it attracted more than three million people.
His remarks on gαy people are being seen as much more conciliatory than his predecessor's position on the issue.
Pope Benedict XVI signed a docuмent in 2005 that said men with deep-rooted ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ tendencies should not be priests.
Pope Francis said gαy clergymen should be forgiven and their sins forgotten.
gαy 'lobbying'
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well," Pope Francis said in a wide-ranging 80-minute long interview with Vatican journalists.
"It says they should not be marginalised because of this but that they must be integrated into society."
But he condemned what he described as lobbying by gαy people.
"The problem is not having this orientation," he said. "We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem."
On the role of women in the Church, he said: "We cannot limit the role of women in the Church to altar girls or the president of a charity, there must be more.
"But with regards to the ordination of women, the Church has spoken and says no... That door is closed."
Answering questions about the troubled Vatican bank, he said the institution must become "honest and transparent" and that he would listen to advice on whether it could be reformed or should be shut down altogether.
"I don't know what will become of the bank. Some say it is better that is a bank, others that it should be a charitable fund and others say close it," he said.
'Undisciplined'
Before leaving Brazil, Pope Francis gave a highly unusual one-to-one interview to a Brazilian TV programme.
The interview was shown on TV Globo's high-profile Sunday night docuмentary programme Fantastico, broadcast not long after the Pope departed for Rome.
The Pope was asked about the moment on his visit when his driver took a wrong turn and his vehicle was surrounded by crowds.
"I don't feel afraid," he answered. "I know that no-one dies before their time.
"I don't want to see these people who have such a great heart from behind a glass box. The two security teams [from the Vatican and Brazil] worked very well. But I know that I am undisciplined in that respect."
Asked about the recent protests by young people on the streets of Brazil, the Pope said: "The young person is essentially a non-conformist, and this is very beautiful.
"It is necessary to listen to young people, give them places to express themselves and to be careful that they aren't manipulated."
Asked about his simple lifestyle and use of a small car, he said it wasn't a good example when a priest had the latest model of a car or a top brand.
"At this moment I believe God is asking us for more simplicity," he added.
:barf:
Who am I to judge anyone who defends Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. Who am I to judge a Freemason.
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Who am I to judge voodoo practitioners?
At least they're not Pelagians or "restorationists"
(http://p2.trrsf.com/image/fget/cf/619/464/images.terra.com/2013/07/27/brazil-popecont-1.jpg)
Picture was taken from here -->http://veritasliberavitvos.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/francisco-esta-feliz-en-su-carnaval/
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:scratchchin:Think About It.
Since when does a Catholic priest, much less the pope, declare he hasn't the right to judge sin- when Christ Himself gives to priests that power? Also, since when does any Catholic, much less the pope, "search" for God when He has already proven Himself to be Jesus Christ? Can Francis be telling us the truth? That he really can't judge, and that he is "searching" for God? If so, think what that means.
:furtive:
He doesn't judge sin because Rome condones sin.
Rome excommunicated archbishop Lefebvre for disobedience.
Rome at the same time was protecting pedophiles and rapists who broke vows of charity
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Yet, to many here; he is still the Vicar of Christ.
:scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :stare:
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Yet, to many here; he is still the Vicar of Christ.
:scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :stare:
I share your frustration. It's tiring - dealing with novus ordites. The good news is that the people who follow Francis are not our problem. Let them follow falsehood. Maybe some day the Holy Ghost will lead them to the Traditional Catholic Faith.