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Author Topic: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023  (Read 10373 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
« Reply #150 on: October 04, 2023, 04:44:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Simeon on October 04, 2023, 03:38:27 PM
    The comparison with nullity in the marriage context is strikingly probative.
    .

    Um, no, I don't think it was. Not in comparison with true (pre-Vatican 2) Catholic teaching and practice on marriage.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #151 on: October 04, 2023, 05:08:57 PM »
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    • None of this really solves the problem of Vatican II.  Let's get rid of Bergoglio ... regardless of whatever reasons might be adduced.  OK, so what?  Crisis over?  What about Roncalli, Montini, Wojtyla, Ratzinger?  Do we have to go analyze their motives, motives that may or may not be discernible in the external forum?

    To me a defect of "motive" would put him in the same category as an occult heretic ... unless there was clear external-forum evidence knowable and provable in the external forum to the contrary, e.g. a docuмent written by Bergoglio (and the others) where he admits to be a Mason intent upon infiltrating and destroying the Church.  Same holds true of marriage.  Unless there's clear, unequivocal, demonstrable, unassailable proof in the external forum regarding contrary or defective motive, the marriage is presumed valid.

    We know they're not popes because popes cannot destroy the Church.  As to why?  Only God knows.  We reject them all (Montini, Wojtyla, Ratzinger, and Bergoglio) as manifestly non-Catholic in the external forum.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #152 on: October 04, 2023, 05:31:39 PM »
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    • One could look at +Vigano's argument 2 ways. 
    1.  He argued that Francis' election was invalid due to subsequent anti-catholic actions, which prove that Francis didn't intend to be a catholic pope.
    The problems this poses are 
    a) proving intent in an indirect way and 
    b) the argument of universal acceptance.

    The alternative way to look at this is:
    2.  Francis' election was valid (we assume) but he SUBSEQUENTLY became a heretic and lost all/part of his office, just like the rest of the V2 popes.
    a.  No need to prove intent
    b.  Universal Acceptance only applies on Day 1, of the election.  After this, a pope's actions speak for themselves.

    Either way is still uncharted water, but #2 is easier to understand and prove.
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    Offline Simeon

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #153 on: October 04, 2023, 06:31:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on October 04, 2023, 04:44:31 PM
    .

    Um, no, I don't think it was. Not in comparison with true (pre-Vatican 2) Catholic teaching and practice on marriage.

    Would you explain how? I might agree with you, yet without abandoning my idea, which involves capacity. One can be incapable of entering into the marriage contract; and one can also be incapable of receiving the Petrine Office. That's the line my analogy runs along.  
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #154 on: October 04, 2023, 06:40:51 PM »
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    • Vigano knew exactly what he was doing when he submitted his video at the last minute to MM. Vigano is very craftly. He isn't on the side of Tradition, and he's playing some kind of game and he's not thinking of the good of Church. Of course sedes are going to play right into whatever he's up to. Vigano tells them what they want to hear. He's been doing that with trads for awhile now. He is not to be trusted.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #155 on: October 04, 2023, 06:49:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 04, 2023, 06:40:51 PM
    Vigano knew exactly what he was doing when he submitted his video at the last minute to MM. Vigano is very craftly. He isn't on the side of Tradition, and he's playing some kind of game and he's not thinking of the good of Church. Of course sedes are going to play right into whatever he's up to. Vigano tells them what they want to hear. He's been doing that with trads for awhile now. He is not to be trusted.

    I've never trusted him. I thought you liked him. 

    But none of this matters. It's not a question of sedevacantism. It's not a question of Vigano. 

    Vigano is a powerful player right now. His words are listened to by many novus ordos. The last thing he said had a lot of unvarnished truth in it. 

    We shouldn't look for one faction or another to score. We look for the truth to score. It's not a team sport. It's not a question of Vigano good or bad, or sedes good or bad. It's God, the Omnipotent, and His truth. Period. 
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    Offline Simeon

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #156 on: October 04, 2023, 06:55:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 04, 2023, 06:40:51 PM
    Vigano knew exactly what he was doing when he submitted his video at the last minute to MM. 

    I hadn't heard that. So you're saying he was trying to fire a torpedo across the bow? Trying to throw a molotov cocktail across the fence? If he was, that's very interesting. I'm curious to see what comes out of his mouth next. And also if he begins to see his circle of influence contract. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #157 on: October 04, 2023, 06:57:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Simeon on October 04, 2023, 06:49:57 PM
    I've never trusted him. I thought you liked him.

    But none of this matters. It's not a question of sedevacantism. It's not a question of Vigano.

    Vigano is a powerful player right now. His words are listened to by many novus ordos. The last thing he said had a lot of unvarnished truth in it.

    We shouldn't look for one faction or another to score. We look for the truth to score. It's not a team sport. It's not a question of Vigano good or bad, or sedes good or bad. It's God, the Omnipotent, and His truth. Period.

    I haven't liked Vigano since he praised Our Lord as the 'Sol Invictus', which is a pagan and freemasonic name for Our Lord. That is not Truth. He also signed 5 or 6 of his written communications using a freemasonic signature. That also is not truth. Whatever he is up to, it's not Truth. Sedes won't understand that of course. As long as he tells them what they want to hear, that constitutes "Truth" as they see it.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #158 on: October 04, 2023, 06:58:58 PM »
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    • Quote
    Vigano knew exactly what he was doing when he submitted his video at the last minute to MM. Vigano is very craftly. He isn't on the side of Tradition, and he's playing some kind of game and he's not thinking of the good of Church. Of course sedes are going to play right into whatever he's up to. Vigano tells them what they want to hear. He's been doing that with trads for awhile now. He is not to be trusted.
    :facepalm:  It's easy to be cynical.  It's harder to provide proof and a motive.  Do you have either?  
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #159 on: October 04, 2023, 07:07:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 04, 2023, 06:58:58 PM
    :facepalm:  It's easy to be cynical.  It's harder to provide proof and a motive.  Do you have either? 

    It's easy enough to prove that he has some sympathy for Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. Do you want me to locate where he referred to Our Lord as Sol Invictus? That's easy enough. Or where he gave a freemasonic signature to several of his communications? This was thoroughly debated here last year. Did you miss it?

    I have no idea what the motive is exactly. Maybe he's a freemason, or maybe he wants to divide trads even further than they already are. I don't have exact proof though. Go ahead and believe that Vigano is going to save the day. You are of course free to do that. I think you'll be very disappointed though.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #160 on: October 04, 2023, 07:27:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 04, 2023, 06:40:51 PM
    Vigano knew exactly what he was doing when he submitted his video at the last minute to MM. Vigano is very craftly. He isn't on the side of Tradition, and he's playing some kind of game and he's not thinking of the good of Church. Of course sedes are going to play right into whatever he's up to. Vigano tells them what they want to hear. He's been doing that with trads for awhile now. He is not to be trusted.

    Wait.  What?

    Where’s all this coming from?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #161 on: October 04, 2023, 07:31:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 04, 2023, 06:57:31 PM
    I haven't liked Vigano since he praised Our Lord as the 'Sol Invictus', which is a pagan and freemasonic name for Our Lord. That is not Truth. He also signed 5 or 6 of his written communications using a freemasonic signature. That also is not truth. Whatever he is up to, it's not Truth. Sedes won't understand that of course. As long as he tells them what they want to hear, that constitutes "Truth" as they see it.

    Talk about stupid reasons.  Wow.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #162 on: October 04, 2023, 07:33:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 04, 2023, 07:07:11 PM
    It's easy enough to prove that he has some sympathy for Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. Do you want me to locate where he referred to Our Lord as Sol Invictus? That's easy enough. Or where he gave a freemasonic signature to several of his communications? This was thoroughly debated here last year. Did you miss it?

    I have no idea what the motive is exactly. Maybe he's a freemason, or maybe he wants to divide trads even further than they already are. I don't have exact proof though. Go ahead and believe that Vigano is going to save the day. You are of course free to do that. I think you'll be very disappointed though.

    So his frequent condemnations of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ indicate that he’s sympathetic to Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ??
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #163 on: October 04, 2023, 07:39:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 04, 2023, 07:33:44 PM
    So his frequent condemnations of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ indicate that he’s sympathetic to Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ??

    I wouldn't say that his condemnations of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ are frequent. What do you think of someone who has sympathy for Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, but also occasionally condemns it? 

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #164 on: October 04, 2023, 07:40:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 04, 2023, 07:27:38 PM
    Wait.  What?

    Where’s all this coming from?

    I shared these views of Vigano back when we were discussing some of his written communications last year. Did you miss that? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29
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