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Author Topic: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023  (Read 9673 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2023, 01:32:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 02, 2023, 12:57:55 PM
    But the important issue for sedevacantists is that we can't throw the Papacy under the bus in order to salvage Bergoglio.  Vatican I taught that the Holy See has ever remained unblemished by error.  If Vatican II did not blemish the Holy See with error, then there's no such thing.

    Vatican I Pastor Aeternus:

    And yet the Holy see is run by men. Men who can err. They are not gods, and they are not divine. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #76 on: October 02, 2023, 01:34:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 02, 2023, 11:19:36 AM
    I doubt that Pope St. Pius X would take an extreme position on the matter. He just wasn't that kind of Pope.

    Especially since he never gave instructions about what to do with a heretical Pope, though it would have been helpful if he would have done so.
    Pope St Pius X actually said it
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #77 on: October 02, 2023, 01:37:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on October 02, 2023, 01:34:08 PM
    Pope St Pius X actually said it

    He said what the Church should do in the case of a heretical Pope?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #78 on: October 02, 2023, 01:40:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 02, 2023, 01:32:17 PM
    And yet the Holy see is run by men. Men who can err. They are not gods, and they are not divine.

    :facepalm: You and your R&R ilk deny the most fundamental doctrine that separates Catholicism from all the other false perversions of Christianity.  While the men can err, the Papal Magisterium cannot mislead the Church.  Period.  End of story.

    You people have heretically butchered the Church into a human institution, and reduced the papacy to nothing different than +Fellay's leadership over the SSPX, where he's a man and can err.  When +Fellay speaks Traditionally, he's right.  When he doesn't, he's wrong.

    I have to wonder whether you still have any Catholic faith left.  This position is objectively and manifestly heretical.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #79 on: October 02, 2023, 01:41:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 02, 2023, 01:40:28 PM
    :facepalm: You and your R&R ilk deny the most fundamental doctrine that separates Catholicism from all the other false perversions of Christianity.  While the men can err, the Papal Magisterium cannot mislead the Church.  Period.  End of story.

    You people have heretically butchered the Church into a human institution, and reduced the papacy to nothing different than +Fellay's leadership over the SSPX, where he's a man and can err.

    So they are basically gods, and divine, in your view?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #80 on: October 02, 2023, 01:43:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 02, 2023, 01:41:43 PM
    So they are basically gods, and divine, in your view?

    :facepalm:  They themselves are obviously not gods, and can sin, etc.  But the MAGISTERIUM is in fact effectively the voice of God and is not capable of leading the entire Church into error.  That is THE foundation of Catholicism.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #81 on: October 02, 2023, 01:44:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 02, 2023, 01:43:11 PM
    :facepalm:  They themselves are obviously not gods, and can sin, etc.  But the MAGISTERIUM is in fact effectively the voice of God and is not capable of leading the entire Church into error.  That is THE foundation of Catholicism.

    So they are divine? The men who inhabit the Holy See, I mean.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #82 on: October 02, 2023, 01:57:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 02, 2023, 01:44:54 PM
    So they are divine? The men who inhabit the Holy See, I mean.

    Are you not even able to read, in addition to having no sense of the Catholic faith left whatsoever?  What part of where I already answered this question didn't you undertand?
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #83 on: October 02, 2023, 02:01:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 02, 2023, 01:57:48 PM
    Are you not even able to read, in addition to having no sense of the Catholic faith left whatsoever?  What part of where I already answered this question didn't you undertand?

    You claim that the magistrium is the voice of God, and (thus) not capable of leading the entire Church into error. How does this work, exactly? Especially when Our Lord set up his Church to be run by men, who can err?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #84 on: October 02, 2023, 02:45:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: cebu on October 02, 2023, 11:55:15 AM
    So much for Michael Matt and his "Unite the Clans" baloney. And he boots out Abp Vigano because he doesn't like what he says and may lose some income stream! 
    It's a sad day for the Matt crowd.  Pretty embarrassing actually - cutting off the darling bishop so vocal against the constant errors and insanity.  "Everyone's welcome !! - unless you disagree with me."  Mr. Matt, buddy, put down the glue sniffing and wake up.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #85 on: October 02, 2023, 02:45:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 02, 2023, 01:40:28 PM
    :facepalm: You and your R&R ilk deny the most fundamental doctrine that separates Catholicism from all the other false perversions of Christianity.  While the men can err, the Papal Magisterium cannot mislead the Church.  Period.  End of story.
    The Seat might as well be occupied by Joel Osteen.

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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #86 on: October 02, 2023, 02:53:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 02, 2023, 07:21:45 AM
    So up to a point he was not a coward in your opinion.  That doesn't mean he's not a coward now.  Unless he comes up with some good excuse for censoring the sede-leaning comments of Vigano, I'll still say he is absolutely a coward.  Regardless of what you think.  As far as I'm concerned, he responded exactly the way I would expect him to respond.
    .

    I don't think Matt's motive is cowardice, actually. I think it's censorship. He doesn't want to give publicity to anyone who defends sedevacantism because it goes against his R&R position. So he's "canceling" Vigano, to use the modern term.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #87 on: October 02, 2023, 02:58:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on October 02, 2023, 02:45:30 PM
    It's a sad day for the Matt crowd.  Pretty embarrassing actually - cutting off the darling bishop so vocal against the constant errors and insanity.  "Everyone's welcome !! - unless you disagree with me."  Mr. Matt, buddy, put down the glue sniffing and wake up.
    .

    Indeed. I wonder if this will spell the end of the working relationship between Vigano and Michael Matt?
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #88 on: October 02, 2023, 03:03:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on October 02, 2023, 02:58:35 PM
    .

    Indeed. I wonder if this will spell the end of the working relationship between Vigano and Michael Matt?

    Now that Matt has drawn his 'line in the sand', it's up to him but given his 'absolutely not sedevacantism - at any cost', it will be interesting to see how he goes forward.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #89 on: October 02, 2023, 03:12:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on October 02, 2023, 02:53:34 PM
    .

    I don't think Matt's motive is cowardice, actually. I think it's censorship. He doesn't want to give publicity to anyone who defends sedevacantism because it goes against his R&R position. So he's "canceling" Vigano, to use the modern term.
    Same difference.
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