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Author Topic: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023  (Read 9811 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2023, 08:32:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 02, 2023, 07:40:50 AM
     Would "universal acceptance" of a trangender female who managed to get elected pope provide a sanatio in radice for that election?

    No.  Neither would "universal acceptance" provide a sanatio in radice for the election of a public manifest formal heretic.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #61 on: October 02, 2023, 09:36:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on October 02, 2023, 08:32:44 AM
    No.  Neither would "universal acceptance" provide a sanatio in radice for the election of a public manifest formal heretic.

    Right, that's what I was getting at.  Invalid matter is invalid matter, and neither females nor non-Catholics are valid matter for the papacy.

    It's one thing to argue that Universal Acceptance is some kind of guarantee of Divine Providence, and another to claim that it could sanate an illegitimate election.  Apart from the issues we cited above with invalid matter, it would also render docuмents like cuм ex Apostolatus and even JP2's Universi Dominici Gregis absurd.  Wojtyla could claim all he wanted that collusion would invalidate an election if subsequent acceptance would validate it anyway.  This principle of sanating faulty elections is really just made up out of thin air and has no theological basis.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #62 on: October 02, 2023, 09:43:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 02, 2023, 08:20:37 AM
    Lad says that Clement did FOR A TIME, and if that is true, then it seemingly works against Billot.

    And, while +Vigano didn't mention them, don't forget the cases of popes St. Martin and St. Silverius.

    And, while +Vigano didn't mention it, even Billot's reasoning was based on the principle that the Ecclesia Credens cannot adhere to a false rule of faith.  Despite the argument among Traditional Catholics about Bellarmine vs. Cajetan/SJT, do any Traditional Catholics adhere to Bergoglio as as rule of faith?  Quite the contrary.  Any Catholic who still has the faith left has serious reservations about Jorge.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #63 on: October 02, 2023, 10:21:28 AM »
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    • At the end of the day, however, in the practical order, nothing will change.  Even if you had 1% of all Catholics becoming convinced that Jorge is not the pope, they're still a minority of "official" Catholics.

    Jorge's popularity numbers are high ...


    And that speaks again to, "Universal Acceptance" by WHOM?  Novus Ordo "Catholics", 95% of whom are, by their own polls, heretics themselves?  And the "Unfavorable" numbers above are not primarily due to Jorge's heretical doctrines, but, rather, due to his handling of various sex abuse issues (such as the McCarrick situation).

    Only God can fix this.  If St. Pius X said in his time that "humanly speaking, the Church is finished," what would he say about the situation today?
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #64 on: October 02, 2023, 11:19:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 02, 2023, 10:21:28 AM
    Only God can fix this.  If St. Pius X said in his time that "humanly speaking, the Church is finished," what would he say about the situation today?

    I doubt that Pope St. Pius X would take an extreme position on the matter. He just wasn't that kind of Pope. 

    Especially since he never gave instructions about what to do with a heretical Pope, though it would have been helpful if he would have done so.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #65 on: October 02, 2023, 11:34:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 02, 2023, 11:19:36 AM
    I doubt that Pope St. Pius X would take an extreme position on the matter. He just wasn't that kind of Pope.

    Especially since he never gave instructions about what to do with a heretical Pope, though it would have been helpful if he would have done so.

    We can argue about the later, but you missed the point, which was simply that this situation is beyond human resolution.  Whether he's already deposed or whether the Church has to declare him deposed, the problem is the same, that you'll not get more than 1% of so-called Conciliar Catholics behind the election of a new pope to replace Bergoglio.
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    Offline cebu

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #66 on: October 02, 2023, 11:55:15 AM »
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    • So much for Michael Matt and his "Unite the Clans" baloney. And he boots out Abp Vigano because he doesn't like what he says and may lose some income stream!  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #67 on: October 02, 2023, 12:00:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: cebu on October 02, 2023, 11:55:15 AM
    So much for Michael Matt and his "Unite the Clans" baloney. And he boots out Abp Vigano because he doesn't like what he says and may lose some income stream! 
    :laugh2::laugh1:
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #68 on: October 02, 2023, 12:03:40 PM »
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    • Here's Ann Barnhardt's take.  She's still clinging to the non-resignationist position.  Ann, newsflash.  Ratzinger is dead.  So he's definitely "resigned" now and no longer pope.  Then the question becomes whether the current "Universal Acceptance" of Jorge would now provide the sanatio in radice to Jorge's status.  Ann doesn't realize that the death of Ratzinger complicates her non-resignationist position.

    Ann Barnhardt:
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    Remember, the reason Bergoglio is an Antipope is because Pope Benedict obviously never validly resigned. All of the other stuff subsequent to Pope Benedict’s invalid attempted partial resignation in February ARSH 2013 is historically interesting, and points to the fact that “something is terribly wrong”, but it isn’t the root of the problem or the FULLNESS of TRUTH. Jorge Bergoglio doesn’t need to be tried as a heretic or “deposed” because he is not and never has been the Pope.

    She's pooh-poohing +Vigano's explanation for why Jorge is not legitimate, but it's something she (and other Bennyvacantists) have to address now that Ratzinger has died.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #69 on: October 02, 2023, 12:21:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 02, 2023, 11:34:06 AM
    We can argue about the later, but you missed the point, which was simply that this situation is beyond human resolution.  Whether he's already deposed or whether the Church has to declare him deposed, the problem is the same, that you'll not get more than 1% of so-called Conciliar Catholics behind the election of a new pope to replace Bergoglio.

    It does seem that the situation is beyond human reasoning, and yet we still try to reason it out, each of us with our own opinion on the matter.

    It may have seemed beyond human reasoning that the Arian heresy would or could be defeated. After all, the Arians tended to be a violent bunch. They kidnapped pope Liberious, and they violently attacked St. Athanasius and his followers. More than once, I think. And, most of the hierarchy were Arians. But still, Arianism was eventually defeated. It helped that a pagan emperor insisted that a Council be called to deal with the matter (if only St. Pius X would have called a council!). It helped too that saints and laymen ACTVELY worked against the Arian heresy. They didn't sit around complaining that the hierarchy were heretics.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #70 on: October 02, 2023, 12:29:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: cebu on October 02, 2023, 11:55:15 AM
    So much for Michael Matt and his "Unite the Clans" baloney. And he boots out Abp Vigano because he doesn't like what he says and may lose some income stream! 
    His "Unite the Clans" never permitted sedevacantists of any stripe.  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #71 on: October 02, 2023, 12:33:49 PM »
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    • Can anyone confirm +Fellay was present at this conference?

    If so, it would have been interesting to read his facial expressions, had MM allowed Viganò’s speech to be played.

    A friend says he’d have had a stroke. 

    Cebu’s comment (a few posts above) highlights the irony of holding a conference under the pretext of uniting the clans, then censoring one of them.

    Novus Ordo conservatives, indultarians, and conciliar/neo-SSPX will all unite (aren’t they already United?), but sedes, Resistance, independents, these must not be involved.

    PS: Was the speech sidelined because Fellay would have been embarrassed to have people seeing Vigano speaking like Lefebvre, while he remains branded, or did the content simply scare MM?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #72 on: October 02, 2023, 12:57:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 02, 2023, 12:21:06 PM
    It does seem that the situation is beyond human reasoning, and yet we still try to reason it out, each of us with our own opinion on the matter.

    But the important issue for sedevacantists is that we can't throw the Papacy under the bus in order to salvage Bergoglio.  Vatican I taught that the Holy See has ever remained unblemished by error.  If Vatican II did not blemish the Holy See with error, then there's no such thing.

    Vatican I Pastor Aeternus:
    Quote
    Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #73 on: October 02, 2023, 01:00:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 02, 2023, 12:33:49 PM
    Can anyone confirm +Fellay was present at this conference?

    If so, it would have been interesting to read his facial expressions, had MM allowed Viganò’s speech to be played.

    A friend says he’d have had a stroke. 

    Cebu’s comment (a few posts above) highlights the irony of holding a conference under the pretext of uniting the clans, then censoring one of them.

    Novus Ordo conservatives, indultarians, and conciliar/neo-SSPX will all unite (aren’t they already United?), but sedes, Resistance, independents, these must not be involved.

    PS: Was the speech sidelined because Fellay would have been embarrassed to have people seeing Vigano speaking like Lefebvre, while he remains branded, or did the content simply scare MM?

    Yes, that would have been humorous to watch +Fellay squirm.

    See, even those who adhere to the Catejan/JST position realize that that the declaration of Bergoglio as a heretic has to begin SOMEwhere.  At first it would be a few, then it would be more, who begin to hold him as alien to the faith and as a non-Catholic.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #74 on: October 02, 2023, 01:26:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: cebu on October 02, 2023, 11:55:15 AM
    So much for Michael Matt and his "Unite the Clans" baloney. And he boots out Abp Vigano because he doesn't like what he says and may lose some income stream! 
    It's not about uniting the clans, it's about collecting the CLAMS!
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