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Author Topic: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023  (Read 9733 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2023, 05:01:56 PM »
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  • For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #31 on: October 01, 2023, 05:13:21 PM »
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  • Absolutely!

    MM's cowardice is most likely financially motivated as well, as he too fits into the grifter category.  He'd alienate a large percentage of his readership if he were to adopt certain unpopular positions.  He can sponsor +Vigano but keep him at an arm's length with the old "the opinions expressed by Archbishop Vigano are not necessarily those of the Remnant".


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #32 on: October 01, 2023, 05:18:44 PM »
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  • If universal consensus were an indefectibly valid argument for a pope's legitimacy, Clement would have had the right to be considered the true pope, rather than Urban. Antipope Clement was defeated by Urban VI's army in the battle of Marino in 1379 and transferred his See to Avignon, leading to the Western Schism, which lasted thirty-nine years. Thus we see that the universal acceptance argument does not withstand the test of history.”

    Presuming Viganò’s history is correct, he has here dealt a severe blow to Billot (and not many are capable of that)!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #33 on: October 01, 2023, 05:26:15 PM »
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  • “…we must ask ourselves if the 2013 election was in some way invalidated by a lack of consent; that is, if the one elected wanted to become Pope of the Catholic Church or rather head of what he calls "our synodal church" - which has nothing to do with the Church of Christ precisely because it stands as something other than it.”

    I’d need to see this developed a bit, because just as with canonizations, applying principles of sacramental theology (eg., intention; validity) seems slightly out of place.  Nevertheless, that matter does no violence to what he’s said thus far…
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #34 on: October 01, 2023, 05:31:03 PM »
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  • “…we must ask ourselves if the 2013 election was in some way invalidated by a lack of consent; that is, if the one elected wanted to become Pope of the Catholic Church or rather head of what he calls "our synodal church" - which has nothing to do with the Church of Christ precisely because it stands as something other than it.”

    I’d need to see this developed a bit, because just as with canonizations, applying principles of sacramental theology (eg., intention; validity) seems slightly out of place.  Nevertheless, that matter does no violence to what he’s said thus far…
    The problem with his line of reasoning is...how does he prove what Bergoglio's intent was at the time of his election?  


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #35 on: October 01, 2023, 05:33:54 PM »
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  • MM's cowardice is most likely financially motivated as well, as he too fits into the grifter category.  He'd alienate a large percentage of his readership if he were to adopt certain unpopular positions.  He can sponsor +Vigano but keep him at an arm's length with the old "the opinions expressed by Archbishop Vigano are not necessarily those of the Remnant".


    Very good assessment!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #36 on: October 01, 2023, 05:34:42 PM »
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  • Well, here it is, and it leaves no ambiguity:

    Some may object: But even if Bergoglio acted with malice, he still accepted what the Cardinals offered him: his election as Bishop of Rome and therefore as Roman Pontiff. And so he assumed office and must be considered to be the Pope. I believe instead that his acceptance of the papacy is invalidated,”

    But then the rationale, based upon an analogy to sacramental theology (which I’m not sure about):

    like a spouse who gets married in church but excludes the specific purposes of marriage from his intention, thus making the marriage null and void precisely due to his lack of consent.”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #37 on: October 01, 2023, 05:43:23 PM »
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  • So here I am, throwing the proverbial stone into the pond.”

    Leaves no doubt he believes Bergoglio’s pontificate is invalid, as he’s recognizing himself as the first uncensored prelate to make the claim.  

    Wow.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #38 on: October 01, 2023, 05:45:36 PM »
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  • Well, here it is, and it leaves no ambiguity:

    Some may object: But even if Bergoglio acted with malice, he still accepted what the Cardinals offered him: his election as Bishop of Rome and therefore as Roman Pontiff. And so he assumed office and must be considered to be the Pope. I believe instead that his acceptance of the papacy is invalidated,”

    But then the rationale, based upon an analogy to sacramental theology (which I’m not sure about):

    like a spouse who gets married in church but excludes the specific purposes of marriage from his intention, thus making the marriage null and void precisely due to his lack of consent.”
    Does he ever quote Church teaching?  Or is this just his personal belief?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #39 on: October 01, 2023, 05:49:04 PM »
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  • Very “interesting” that he concludes with this:

    “where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more”

    That’s from Romans 5:20 (which was my CI signature for years).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #40 on: October 01, 2023, 06:09:21 PM »
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  • So here I am, throwing the proverbial stone into the pond.”

    Leaves no doubt he believes Bergoglio’s pontificate is invalid, as he’s recognizing himself as the first uncensored prelate to make the claim. 

    Wow.

    Nice.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #41 on: October 01, 2023, 06:30:57 PM »
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  • The problem with his line of reasoning is...how does he prove what Bergoglio's intent was at the time of his election? 

    I don't think he feels the need to prove it per se.  More than anything, I feel that he's speculating about how Bergoglio could have "happened".  Perhaps he thinks that there might be a growing consensus that Jorge isn't the pope, or perhaps he thinks that God will resolve the matter.  So, for instance, I speculate that the problem goes back to Siri's election in 1958, an I can't prove that either.  So I think it's more in the interests of thinking through how this all came about or could come about as a help to those whose faith might be scandalized by Jorge.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #42 on: October 01, 2023, 06:33:03 PM »
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  • ... as he’s recognizing himself as the first uncensored prelate to make the claim. 

    Well, I'm not sure what you mean by uncensored, but Bishops Lenga and Gracida have both asserted that Jorge is not the pope.  I believe that Gracida was first, then Lenga, and now Vigano.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #43 on: October 01, 2023, 06:34:18 PM »
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  • Here's Lenga being punished by Bergoglio.
    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/43704/retired-archbishop-disciplined-after-calling-pope-francis-a-heretic
    Quote
    A retired archbishop who accused Pope Francis of heresy has been ordered to cease celebrating Mass in public.

    Archbishop Jan Paweł Lenga, the 69-year-old former Archbishop of Karaganda in Kazakhstan, has also been forbidden to preach at Masses or speak to the media.

    The sanctions were imposed by the Diocese of Włocławek in central Poland, where the archbishop retired after serving in Kazakhstan.

    Archbishop Lenga immediately defied the ruling by giving an interview to WRealu24.tv, in which he insisted that he would continue to speak out.
    ...
    KAI said the archbishop had refused to mention Pope Francis's name when celebrating Masses. It added that the measures would remain in effect until the Holy See issues a judgment on the case.

    The archbishop has repeatedly criticised Pope Francis. Last year the Polish journal Więź reported that he had called Francis a "usurper and heretic."

    Więź said the archbishop had given a book-length interview to the author Stanisław Krajski. The journal quoted the archbishop as saying: "Bergoglio preaches untruth, preaches sin, and does not preach a tradition that lasted so many years, 2,000 years... He proclaims the truth of this world and this is the truth of the devil."