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Author Topic: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023  (Read 9779 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2023, 04:15:14 PM »
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  • He calls out Jorge for heresy on the grounds of 1) Amoris Laetitia and 2) his condemnation of capital punishment.

    Starting about 20 minutes in (out of 37), he's arguing from Jorge's lack of intention to be a Catholic pope, mentions Ratzinger possibly being pressured to resign, etc.  Not quite sure where he's going with it other than questioning Jorge's legitimacy due to invalid election in 2013.

    He's calling out Jorge's malicious intent to "change the papacy". (23 minutes in)

    That reminds me of one of Bishop Sanborn's sedeprivationist arguments that the V2 heretic popes did not intend to function as true Popes.

    He's characterizing Jorge as a conscious destroyer of the Church.

    Im not sure “intention” is pertinent to pontifical legitimacy (conflating sacramental theology with papal legitimacy?), but like I said, I’ve read not a word yet. 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #16 on: October 01, 2023, 04:16:36 PM »
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  • He's suggesting that due to Jorge's malicious agenda to destroy the papacy, that there was a "defect of consent" for him to become Pope.

    He seems to reject the munus / ministerium distinction, not sure whether he means that it was wrong for Ratzinger to make that distinction ... but his intent with this is unclear, whether he's endorsing or rejecting that particular argument.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #17 on: October 01, 2023, 04:18:04 PM »
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  • Yes, he rejects the notion that faulty election can be sanated by Universal Acceptance.

    :popcorn:

    I wonder if he realizes that recognition exposes all the other conciliar popes?

    It certainly seems The Remnant did!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #18 on: October 01, 2023, 04:23:26 PM »
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  • That reminds me of one of Bishop Sanborn's sedeprivationist arguments that the V2 heretic popes did not intend to function as true Popes.

    https://mostholytrinityseminary.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Explanation-of-the-Thesis.pdf
    Quote
    The Vatican II “popes” are not true popes since they posit an obstacle to the reception the authority of Christ. Just as someone can posit an obstacle to the reception of grace from a sacrament (e.g., attachment to mortal sin in the case of Confirmation), so someone can posit an obstacle to the flow of authority from Christ. And this is true even if he has gone through all of the necessary legal steps to attain the authority. In the same way, the person who posits an obstacle to the grace of the Sacrament of Confirmation nonetheless exteriorly receives the sacrament. If the pope-elect should remove the obstacle to the flow of authority, he would become the pope, just as he who confesses his sins with true sorrow then receives the effect of the Sacrament of Confirmation.

    What is this obstacle to authority? It is theintention of promulgating to the whole Church false doctrines, false liturgy, and evil disciplines, all of which constitute an essential change of the Catholic Faith.

    This seems to be +Vigano's argument regarding the illegitimacy of Jorge's election, with passing mentions of ministerium/minus and the St. Gallen Mafia collusion.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #19 on: October 01, 2023, 04:30:39 PM »
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  • So, I just finished, and the main takeaways are that it's very clear he does not regard Jorge as a legitimate pope, or at the very least considers him to be highly doubtful, based on the notion that the 2013 election was illegitimate.  He rejects the notion that a faulty election would be "sanated" sanatio in radice by subsequent Universal Acceptance.  He believes the election and/or continuing papacy of Jorge is invalid primarily due to a defect of consent or intention, along the same lines that Bishop Sanborn outlines above, holding that Bergoglio had a malicious intention to destroy the Church and the papacy, and that prevents him from exercising the authority of St. Peter.  He also states that while we must "resist" Jorge, obeying God rather than man, that's not enough and we need to get to the root of the problem (after which he goes into why he believes that Berogoglio may be or is an illegitimate pope).  As OP stated, he comes a hair's breadth away from saying Jorge IS illegitimate, but basically indicates that it's very possible or even very likely.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #20 on: October 01, 2023, 04:31:07 PM »
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  • Some will consider the following statement surprising and ironic, but I’d find much more weight behind Viganò’s position if he questioned the legitimacy of all the conciliar popes, rather than just Francis.

    Questioning only Francis’s legitimacy makes it seem merely personal, as though the questions attached to him to not, somehow, attach to the rest.

    I agree with the sedes that being a Benny gets us nowhere (and feels like controlled opposition to keep us choosing between liberals and conservatives.

    Go all the way, or don’t go there at all.
    👍👍

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #21 on: October 01, 2023, 04:32:35 PM »
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  • So, I just finished, and the main takeaways are that it's very clear he does not regard Jorge as a legitimate pope, or at the very least considers him to be highly doubtful, based on the notion that the 2013 election was illegitimate.  He rejects the notion that a faulty election would be "sanated" sanatio in radice by subsequent Universal Acceptance.  He believes the election and/or continuing papacy of Jorge is invalid primarily due to a defect of consent or intention, along the same lines that Bishop Sanborn outlines above, holding that Bergoglio had a malicious intention to destroy the Church and the papacy, and that prevents him from exercising the authority of St. Peter.  He also states that while we must "resist" Jorge, obeying God rather than man, that's not enough and we need to get to the root of the problem (after which he goes into why he believes that Berogoglio may be or is an illegitimate pope).  As OP stated, he comes a hair's breadth away from saying Jorge IS illegitimate, but basically indicates that it's very possible or even very likely.

    Vigano's position would seem to correlate with cuм ex apostalatus officio, no?

    https://www.catechism.cc/articles/Pope-Paul-IV-Ex-Apostolatus-Officio.htm


    Quote
    6. In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:-] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:

    (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;

    (ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;

    (iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;

    (iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain;

    (v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;

    (vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.



    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #22 on: October 01, 2023, 04:35:33 PM »
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  • Some will consider the following statement surprising and ironic, but I’d find much more weight behind Viganò’s position if he questioned the legitimacy of all the conciliar popes, rather than just Francis.

    Questioning only Francis’s legitimacy makes it seem merely personal, as though the questions attached to him to not, somehow, attach to the rest.

    I agree with the sedes that being a Benny gets us nowhere (and feels like controlled opposition to keep us choosing between liberals and conservatives.

    Go all the way, or don’t go there at all.

    I too agree with this.  Bergoglio is just a small part of the problem here, as the Conciliar revolution starts with Roncalli.  Removing Jorge from the equation doesn't really address the entire problem, or even the tip of the Conciliar iceberg.  He's basically going along with the Bennyvacantist mentality, where Jorge is THE problem.  There's the silly implication that all would be "well" with the Church if Jorge were taken out of the picture, although elsewhere +Vigano has attacked Montini, Wojtyla, and Ratzinger, and has denounced Vatican II as radically defective and unsalvageable.

    I pray that he can put it all together and realized that the first illegitimate election (that was not "sanated" by "Universal Acceptance") was that of Roncalli, since Siri had already been elected and had accepted the papal office.  Now THAT solves the Conciliar problem 100%.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #23 on: October 01, 2023, 04:36:25 PM »
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  • Wow. 

    Michael Matt screwed up.

    The result will be that Vigano will now start to question WHY The Remnant won’t entertain the pope issue, and will push Vigano in the opposite direction.

    But questioning only Francis is nothing.  Go all the way, or don’t go at all.  The subject is far too important for compromise and half measures!

    I sense Providence at work here.
    MM is a coward.  

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #24 on: October 01, 2023, 04:38:17 PM »
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  • MM is a coward. 

    100%.  Dimonds show him referring to "Saint" John Paul II and saying things like, "not to detract from his personal sanctity ..." etc.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #25 on: October 01, 2023, 04:40:03 PM »
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  • I can see part of deligitimizing Jorge as being a tactical maneuver.  Once people come to accept that Jorge is a non-pope, they might then be open to questioning Roncalli et al. in the same light and according to the same principles.  I KNOW that +Vigano realizes that the problem did not start with Jorge, ever since his groundbreaking piece where he disagreed with +Schneider by arguing that V2 was unsalvageable and had to be thrown into the trash bin.

    I have no doubt whatsoever that Roncalli, Montini, Wojtyla, and Ratzinger were not simply men whose minds were contaminated by Modernism, poor misguided (yet sincere) souls, but that they were enemy agents, infiltrators, and, as +Vigano says of Jorge, had a deliberate malicious agenda to destroy the Church.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #27 on: October 01, 2023, 04:44:27 PM »
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  • Reading now…

    Saw this:

    The evidence of Bergoglio's alienity to the office he holds is certainly a painful and very serious fact;”

    :popcorn:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #28 on: October 01, 2023, 04:50:38 PM »
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  • …but also with respect to the Head of the Mystical Body, Jesus Christ: whose authority is exercised by Bergoglio no longer in a vicarious way,…

    :popcorn:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #29 on: October 01, 2023, 05:00:25 PM »
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  • Some will consider the following statement surprising and ironic, but I’d find much more weight behind Viganò’s position if he questioned the legitimacy of all the conciliar popes, rather than just Francis.

    Questioning only Francis’s legitimacy makes it seem merely personal, as though the questions attached to him to not, somehow, attach to the rest.

    I agree with the sedes that being a Benny gets us nowhere (and feels like controlled opposition to keep us choosing between liberals and conservatives.

    Go all the way, or don’t go there at all.


    Very good Sean, I agree.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?