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Author Topic: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023  (Read 9687 times)

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Offline ElwinRansom1970

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Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2023, 06:49:32 PM »
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  • If universal consensus were an indefectibly valid argument for a pope's legitimacy, Clement would have had the right to be considered the true pope, rather than Urban. Antipope Clement was defeated by Urban VI's army in the battle of Marino in 1379 and transferred his See to Avignon, leading to the Western Schism, which lasted thirty-nine years. Thus we see that the universal acceptance argument does not withstand the test of history.”

    Presuming Viganò’s history is correct, he has here dealt a severe blow to Billot (and not many are capable of that)!
    This is historically correct. Ladislaus can confirm my competency to acknowledge Viganò's claim regarding Urban and Clement.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #46 on: October 01, 2023, 07:17:55 PM »
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  • So, a few words on Universal Peaceful Acceptance.

    1) Pope Paul IV implicitly rejects the notion.  While cuм ex Apostolatus isn't directly doctrinal, when he states that a heretic who's elected would not be the pope even if he were "accepted by all", Universal Acceptance would render this statement moot and even nonsensical, since acceptance by all would make him the pope.

    2) Historical precedents that falsify Universal Acceptance, in addition to the one cited by +Vigano --
      -- St. Silverius was kidnapped and exiled by the wicked Byzantine Empress for rejecting various heretics she had nominated to be bishops, and the people and clergy of Rome elected Pope Vigilius, who was "universally accepted", despite the fact that the previous pope was still alive
      -- St. Martin I, identically scenario, exiled by the Byzantine Emperor by refusing to accept his attempts to promote the monothelitist heresy.  Eugene I was elected and "universally accepted" before St. Martin died in exile.
      -- Benedict IX was elected (through corruption and bribery) but was "universally accepted".  But the clergy and people of Rome deposed him and elected and "universally accepted" another.

    ... Since Popes cannot be deposed, the subsequent "universal acceptance" of their replacements were not legitimate.

    3) Even Cardinal Billot states, when articulating his position, that his principle of "Universal Acceptance" derives from the principle that the Ecclesia Credens cannot adhere to a false rule of faith.  From almost the very beginning, Traditional Catholics (those who still kept the faith) certainly rejected the V2 papal claimants as a "rule of faith", despite the disputes about whether they technically remained popes.

    4) Apart from God's Providence preventing such a scenario, would "universal acceptance" prove and even "sanate" the election of some transgender female?  In this day and age, with chemical/hormonal and surgical interventions, such a one might sneak in as "pope".

    If we believe that "universal acceptance" can sanate an illegitimate election, we'd be saying that the Church deposed a couple of the above-mentioned popes, St. Silverius and St. Martin I, as well as Benedict IX.

    And I hold that the election of Cardinal Siri is in the same category.  He was elected, accepted, and then was forced to resign under grave threats, rendering is resignation invalid, and that this is that to which the prophecy of St. Francis refers, the "uncanonically elected pope" who would be a destroyer.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #47 on: October 01, 2023, 07:19:26 PM »
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  • This is historically correct. Ladislaus can confirm my competency to acknowledge Viganò's claim regarding Urban and Clement.

    Confirmed.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #48 on: October 01, 2023, 08:08:59 PM »
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  • One thing still bothers me about Vigano’s refutation of the UPA argument of Billot:

    Billot himself was writing well after the historical example of Pope Urban, yet it appears not to have dissuaded his theory.

    Why not?  

    Does Billot address the matter somewhere in untranslated writing, or am I expected to believe that such a momentous historical example simply skipped his mind (and/or that Vigano is the better historian and theologian)?

    Possibly, but that’s saying a lot.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #49 on: October 01, 2023, 09:41:01 PM »
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  • But then the rationale, based upon an analogy to sacramental theology (which I’m not sure about):

    like a spouse who gets married in church but excludes the specific purposes of marriage from his intention, thus making the marriage null and void precisely due to his lack of consent.”
    .

    Well, except that in the eyes of the Church such a person would be validly married, since he wouldn't be able to prove his withholding of his intention, and the Church can only accept his publicly-stated intention in his marriage ceremony to get married, and must therefore consider him married. Such a person at the very least would never be able to marry anyone else.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #50 on: October 01, 2023, 09:46:48 PM »
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  • If universal consensus were an indefectibly valid argument for a pope's legitimacy, Clement would have had the right to be considered the true pope, rather than Urban. Antipope Clement was defeated by Urban VI's army in the battle of Marino in 1379 and transferred his See to Avignon, leading to the Western Schism, which lasted thirty-nine years. Thus we see that the universal acceptance argument does not withstand the test of history.”

    Presuming Viganò’s history is correct, he has here dealt a severe blow to Billot (and not many are capable of that)!
    .

    From reading Wikipedia, it doesn't sound like Clement ever had the universal acceptance of the Church. I really don't understand the argument he is making here.

    Nobody says the Church will always adhere universally to a true pope. That is not what the Universal Acceptance argument states. What it states is that the entire Church will never adhere universally to a false pope. As far as I know, the entire Church never adhered to any of the papal claimants during the Great Western Schism, so that event cannot be used as an argument regarding the Universal Acceptance Position.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #51 on: October 02, 2023, 06:57:48 AM »
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  • Nobody says the Church will always adhere universally to a true pope. That is not what the Universal Acceptance argument states. What it states is that the entire Church will never adhere universally to a false pope. As far as I know, the entire Church never adhered to any of the papal claimants during the Great Western Schism, so that event cannot be used as an argument regarding the Universal Acceptance Position.
    I don't think I've ever heard it described that way.  That certainly makes sense. 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #52 on: October 02, 2023, 07:02:28 AM »
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  • Well, I'm not sure what you mean by uncensored, but Bishops Lenga and Gracida have both asserted that Jorge is not the pope.  I believe that Gracida was first, then Lenga, and now Vigano.
    Except Vigano was just censored because of his sede-leaning message.  This might show whether Vigano has the courage to continue with this line of thinking.


    Online Plenus Venter

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #53 on: October 02, 2023, 07:11:18 AM »
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  • Archbishop Vigano's argument against universal peaceful acceptance seems to me uncertain, and would not in any case even constitute a common opinion. 
    His argument on the grounds of Pope Francis's possible lack of consent to the Papacy is nothing more than a thesis.
    I don't think this changes anything.
    He did state at the very beginning of his address that he was not providing answers, just asking questions that had to be asked.
    He also stated near the end that the situation is humanly irremediable.
    Yet in spite of that he does seem to be calling for the application of some human remedy, more than just resistance. He clearly wants discussion, seemingly in the hope that it may lead to some solution to the problem which he has more or less said only God can resolve!

    I think it is uncharitable to call Michael Matt a coward. I think he is anything but that. I would say he is fearless in calling out the criminals undermining the spiritual and temporal edifices. He shames the neo-SSPX. But he's mixed up. His 'unite the clans' crusade is mistaken, based on a false 'tradecuмenism' and doomed to failure. He is not what most of us would consider a 'turetrad'. But he's no coward. I think it is disappointing if it is true that he decided not to let Archbishop Vigano's address go to air at the conference. Such a champion of the resistance deserves to be heard. But we don't know all the circuмstances so let's not get too judgemental.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #54 on: October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 AM »
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  • I don't think this changes anything.

    What it changes is that you have another Vatican II prelate rejecting Jorge's legitimacy, and +Vigano has a much higher profile than +Lenga and +Gracida, especially since he's become famous due to 1) the McCarrick situation and 2) Trump's praise for his letter on Twitter.

    But, in terms of the state of the argument, nothing will ever "change anything" for many R&R, who are dead set on Jorge being the pope come hell or high water.

    On top of everything else, what does "Acceptance" mean?  Does it mean to claim, "Yep, he's pope because ... John of St. Thomas."? or does it, as Billot himself indicates, mean accepting Jorge as a rule of faith.  I know of know Catholic who still has the faith that accepts Jorge Bergoglio as a rule of faith.  It's only R&R's butchery of Traditional theology that has created the spectre of the "cardboard pope", where accepting him translates into "yep, he's pope" and putting his picture up in the vestibule.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #55 on: October 02, 2023, 07:21:45 AM »
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  • I think it is uncharitable to call Michael Matt a coward. I think he is anything but that. I would say he is fearless in calling out the criminals undermining the spiritual and temporal edifices. He shames the neo-SSPX. But he's mixed up. His 'unite the clans' crusade is mistaken, based on a false 'tradecuмenism' and doomed to failure. He is not what most of us would consider a 'turetrad'. But he's no coward. I think it is disappointing if it is true that he decided not to let Archbishop Vigano's address go to air at the conference. Such a champion of the resistance deserves to be heard. But we don't know all the circuмstances so let's not get too judgemental.
    So up to a point he was not a coward in your opinion.  That doesn't mean he's not a coward now.  Unless he comes up with some good excuse for censoring the sede-leaning comments of Vigano, I'll still say he is absolutely a coward.  Regardless of what you think.  As far as I'm concerned, he responded exactly the way I would expect him to respond.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #56 on: October 02, 2023, 07:31:48 AM »
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  • While +Vigano didn't mention these examples, we have the cases of St. Silverius and St. Martin I that I have repeatedly cited.  Nor does he mention the implicit rejection of "Universal Acceptance" by Paul IV in cuм ex Apostolatus.

    In terms of Clement, he was indeed universally accepted for some time, and the question becomes one of whether there's some "time limit".  +Vigano alludes to some argument made by +Schneider (that I don't recall seeing) that there's some kind of "time" factor involved, i.e. that after a certain amount of time, a faulty election would be "sanated".

    As I've stated repeatedly, with regard to UA, there are two questions ...

    1) What does "acceptance" mean?  According to Billot, it's accepting a pope as a rule of faith, and has nothing to do with which side of the Bellarmine vs. Cajetan/John of St. Thomas debate you fall into.  Does any Catholic who still has the faith accept Jorge Bergoglio as the "rule of faith"?  We can't operate on R&R's butchery of what it means to "accept" a pope, i.e., to say, "yep, he's pope." on account of mere external appearances.

    2) "Acceptance" by whom?  Do the 95%+ of Novus Ordites who, by their own polls, are heretics on one point or another, even "count" where it comes to "acceptance"?  97%-99% of the world's bishops would have accepted an Arian "pope" during the Arian crisis.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #57 on: October 02, 2023, 07:34:01 AM »
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  • So up to a point he was not a coward in your opinion.  That doesn't mean he's not a coward now.  Unless he comes up with some good excuse for censoring the sede-leaning comments of Vigano, I'll still say he is absolutely a coward.  Regardless of what you think.  As far as I'm concerned, he responded exactly the way I would expect him to respond.

    There's nothing uncharitable for calling a coward a coward.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #58 on: October 02, 2023, 07:40:50 AM »
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  • People here should look at the examples of St. Silverius and St. Martin.  Both were "replaced" by the clergy of Rome by an individual who was universally accepted while the reigning pope still lived.  St. Martin even openly protested their attempts to elect another in his place.

    So, does "universal acceptance" permit the Church to effectively depose a legitimate pope?  Would "universal acceptance" of a trangender female who managed to get elected pope provide a sanatio in radice for that election?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "Vitium Consensus" - Archbishop Vigano - Catholic Identity Conference 2023
    « Reply #59 on: October 02, 2023, 08:20:37 AM »
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  • Archbishop Vigano's argument against universal peaceful acceptance seems to me uncertain, and would not in any case even constitute a common opinion.
    His argument on the grounds of Pope Francis's possible lack of consent to the Papacy is nothing more than a thesis.
    I don't think this changes anything.
    He did state at the very beginning of his address that he was not providing answers, just asking questions that had to be asked.
    He also stated near the end that the situation is humanly irremediable.
    Yet in spite of that he does seem to be calling for the application of some human remedy, more than just resistance. He clearly wants discussion, seemingly in the hope that it may lead to some solution to the problem which he has more or less said only God can resolve!

    I think it is uncharitable to call Michael Matt a coward. I think he is anything but that. I would say he is fearless in calling out the criminals undermining the spiritual and temporal edifices. He shames the neo-SSPX. But he's mixed up. His 'unite the clans' crusade is mistaken, based on a false 'tradecuмenism' and doomed to failure. He is not what most of us would consider a 'turetrad'. But he's no coward. I think it is disappointing if it is true that he decided not to let Archbishop Vigano's address go to air at the conference. Such a champion of the resistance deserves to be heard. But we don't know all the circuмstances so let's not get too judgemental.

    In my opinion, you’re cutting MM too much slack.  He invites a high profile bishop to contribute a speech, previews it, is scared by what he hears, and decides to bury it, without having the courage and courtesy to tell Vigano, and/or explain why.

    But that’s a side item.

    I agree with what you say above about Viganò’s thesis on UPA, and I’m confused by it, because my understanding of the GWS was than none of the papal claimants achieved UPA.  Lad says that Clement did FOR A TIME, and if that is true, then it seemingly works against Billot.  The problem is that it’s hard for me to believe either Billot or Vigano would be mistaken about an historical fact, or (Billot) overlook the significance of that fact vis-a-vis the UPA thesis.

    Hopefully, now that Vigano has “cast the first stone into the pond,” he’ll follow-up with further explanations.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."