Author Topic: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available  (Read 6161 times)

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Offline Bellator Dei

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Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
« Reply #225 on: November 05, 2019, 10:53:04 AM »
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  • But this is a contradiction of his Opinion 2.
    .
    As Pax Christi points out, there has to be more to the story.  +Bellarmine is not dumb enough to contradict himself in a matter of pages.  There must be missing context.

    Pax, 

    In his writings on the 2nd Opinion, Bellarmine is addressing the issue of a secret, or occult heretic.  
    Please pray for all of the holy souls in purgatory.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #226 on: November 05, 2019, 12:06:32 PM »
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  • In the latter case, at least according to the opinion of Bellarmine, if the bishops can “convict him of heresy” he will immediately be ipso facto deposed - not by the force of their judgment, but by God Himself who will not do so without it.  After convicting him of heresy, they would be able to “judge and punish him” (with a coactive judgement) by deposing him even against his will, since he would then no longer be Pope.  

    So ... if he's already "no longer pope", then what is he being "deposed" from here?  Are you implying the material-formal distinction?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #227 on: November 05, 2019, 12:13:23 PM »
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  • Here's why I feel this is being muddled:

    In a discretionary judgment, the Pope is not being judged per se, what is being ascertained, as Torquemada explains, is the truth of the proposition:  "Jorge Bergoglio is no longer Catholic."  So the Pope is not the object of this judgment, but rather, the proposition, "Jorge is not a Catholic."

    This is NOT some kind of formal juridical thing, but rather, merely the Church coming to the knowledge and awareness of Jorge's non-Catholicity.

    This requires no specific process, no declaration, of any kind.  There are cases where the truth of the proposition would be just self-evident.  "I, Jorge, have become a Buddhist" or "I, Jorge, don't believe in the Real Presence."  No proceedings or declaration is required here.

    It's in cases where there's disagreement or dispute or where Jorge adamantly denies the proposition that there needs to be a process of some kind, so that the Church might discern the truth of the matter.

    We are not talking about any kind of LEGAL "conviction" where it comes to a discretionary judgment.  "convinco" can have that technical legal term, but it is not so used when applied to a discretionary judgment.  In that context it just means that the Church has come to be "convinced" that he's in fact a heretic.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #228 on: November 05, 2019, 12:20:07 PM »
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  • If we had, for instance, a man elected to the papacy during the time of the Arian crisis, and at some point he became an Arian, when the majority of the hierarchy had also gone Arian, ... what then?

    So this man is the legitimate pope, despite being an Arian, simply because the majority of the "Church" had gone Arian and the true Catholics were in a minority and therefore not in a position to convene a General Council, much less get a verdict to declare that the man is a heretic.

    This is the situation we're in.  If Traditional Catholics were in charge, they would certainly want to subject Jorge to a "discretionary judgment".

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #229 on: November 05, 2019, 12:32:51 PM »
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  • Quote
    This requires no specific process, no declaration, of any kind.  There are cases where the truth of the proposition would be just self-evident.  "I, Jorge, have become a Buddhist" or "I, Jorge, don't believe in the Real Presence."  No proceedings or declaration is required here.
    I get what you're saying but that's just theory.  In practice, there would always be a declaration, even in a self-evident case, because the law requires all the "i's" be dotted and "t's" crossed.  In your example, it would be mere formality, but still required.  As I said earlier, even in a self-evident case where the pope exclaims he is a Buddhist, packs up his bags and leaves Rome for India, there would still be a governmental requirement to declare that he vacated the office of his own will, even if for historical purposes.  Or, it would be implied as part of the new election process. 
    .
    Think about when a pope dies...that's as self evident as you get.  But there's still a process to record his death, with witnesses identifying the body, etc. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #230 on: November 05, 2019, 02:33:03 PM »
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  • I get what you're saying but that's just theory.  In practice, there would always be a declaration, ...

    Yes, I'm certain that in most cases there would be a declaration, for the sake of clarity, even if Bergoglio were to declare himself a Jew, then run off, get married, and become a rabbi.

    Online DecemRationis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #231 on: November 05, 2019, 03:22:35 PM »
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  • For example, have you ever noticed how Bellarmine appears to directly contradict himself by saying, in the 5th Opinion (and 2nd) that a Pope who falls into occult heresy remains Pope, while in his commentary on the 4th Opinion he seems to say that exact opposite - that a Pope who loses the virtue of faith (i.e., an occult heretic) ceases to be Pope, since "the virtue of faith is a necessary disposition to retain the form of the Pontificate"?   Have you ever noticed that apparent contradiction?  I always noticed it.  I now know that he actually doesn't contradict himself, but you would never in a million years be able to figure out why, if all you had to go on is his commentary on those two opinions.


    It is not a settled question whether an "occult heretic" is truly a member of the Church or not. Of course, if his heresy is occult, there is nothing perceptible to other Catholics who therefore have no ground for rejecting someone who is truly an occult heretic. When that heresy is manifested, in a discipline or teaching that is contrary to the Gospel and the Catholic faith, it's a different story. As a practical matter, why would it be necessary for the Church to be rid of an occult heretic who imposed no heresy on the Church?

    An occult heretic loses the interior disposition of faith, and loses the necessary interior bond that unites him with Christ. We can't judge the interior dispositiion, but of course Christ can, does and will. Lacking the bond of faith, the occult heretic is not of the Church, is not one of the faithful, though he may appear to be to us. This is a minority opinion but viable and not rejected by the Church, and I think it makes sense in light of the necessity of possession of the Catholic faith to be one of Christ's.

    St. Robert says in rejecting the second opinion that an occult heretic falls outside the Church and is deposed by God, thus open to the judgment of men, that:


    Quote
    For Jurisdiction is certainly given to the Pontiff by God, but with the agreement of men, as is obvious; because this man, who beforehand was not Pope, has from men that he would begin to be Pope, therefore, he is not removed by God unless it is through men. But a secret heretic cannot be judged by men, nor would such wish to relinquish that power by his own will. Add, that the foundation of this opinion is that secret heretics are outside the Church, which is false, and we will amply demonstrate this in our tract de Ecclesia, bk 1.

    Bellarmine, Robert. On the Roman Pontiff (De Controversiis Book 1) . Mediatrix Press. Kindle Edition.

    You can see his emphasis in rejecting the opinion is the impossibility of something undisclosed and secret to men being judged by men. I am not familiar with the full discussion by St. Robert in de Ecclesia. Of course I know that he was of the sensible and I believe correct view that an occult heretic must be treated by men as part of the Church, since he is by all ostensible appearances. I am not sure if he believes that a secret heretic, without the Catholic faith, is still a member of the Church in the eyes of God, i.e., spiritually speaking. In any event, as I said, it is an open question whether occult heretics are outside the Church. See, for example, Fr. Salaverri in his manual on the Church of Christ:

    Quote
    That formal, but occult, heretics are not members of the Church, is defended by some authors, such as Suárez, Molina, Billuart, Franzelin, Michelitsch, Stolz, Fraghi, Journet, Zapalena, and a few others. But the contrary opinion is more common.[12]

    https://lumenscholasticum.wordpress.com/2016/12/05/fr-salaverri-on-whether-heretics-apostates-schismatics-and-excommunicates-are-members-of-the-church/

    My own personal theory: most if not all of the V2 popes may have been "occult heretics," lacking the interior, spiritual bond with Christ - the necessary possession of the Catholic faith - and therefore, not Catholics upon assumption of the throne of Peter, and the charism of the Holy Ghost that would protect someone who possessed the Catholic faith upon elevation to the pontificate was absent. While appearing to be of the Church, and having the right to be treated by other men as such absent manifest heresy, they were not in fact Catholic. Hence, errors in discipline, teaching, etc. were possible without offending traditional Catholic teaching regarding true popes.

    This would be supported by the bull of Paul IV in Cum Ex.
    I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard

    Online DecemRationis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #232 on: November 05, 2019, 03:34:20 PM »
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  • And this is our quandary. Because of the "occult" nature of their heresy, we are at pains what to make of men whose appearance and actions give way to a debatable question among theologians about whether they are formal heretics. They may lack the interior bond necessary but the expression is disguised or not given full expression, and thus they continued (continue - so far) in office and wreaked their havoc in the Church Militant. 
    I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #233 on: November 05, 2019, 06:14:49 PM »
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  • My own personal theory: most if not all of the V2 popes may have been "occult heretics," lacking the interior, spiritual bond with Christ - the necessary possession of the Catholic faith - and therefore, not Catholics upon assumption of the throne of Peter, and the charism of the Holy Ghost that would protect someone who possessed the Catholic faith upon elevation to the pontificate was absent. While appearing to be of the Church, and having the right to be treated by other men as such absent manifest heresy, they were not in fact Catholic. Hence, errors in discipline, teaching, etc. were possible without offending traditional Catholic teaching regarding true popes.

    This is interesting.  I personally believe that not only were these men occult heretics ... but even deliberate conscious infiltrators, enemy agents, bent on attempting to destroy the Church.  They would of course deliberately try to keep their heresy occult so that they could wreak even more havoc.

    This is actually a very interesting question overall.  If I'm a deliberate agent of destruction, but I keep my heresy occult, could I go define a dogma that's erroneous (on purpose)?

    Of course, I think that there's enough public evidence about these men to suggest that it's quite possible, even probable, they they were infiltrators.  Given that positive doubt, this puts the into the papa dubius state.

    Online DecemRationis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #234 on: November 07, 2019, 11:11:29 AM »
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  • This is interesting.  I personally believe that not only were these men occult heretics ... but even deliberate conscious infiltrators, enemy agents, bent on attempting to destroy the Church.  They would of course deliberately try to keep their heresy occult so that they could wreak even more havoc.

    This is actually a very interesting question overall.  If I'm a deliberate agent of destruction, but I keep my heresy occult, could I go define a dogma that's erroneous (on purpose)?

    Of course, I think that there's enough public evidence about these men to suggest that it's quite possible, even probable, they they were infiltrators.  Given that positive doubt, this puts the into the papa dubius state.

    Ladislaus,

    I am not overly familiar with the sedeprivationist position, but it seems to me to recognize obvious facts (e.g., Francis is in material possession of the See of Peter, and was elected and designated as such by the proper and legitimate authority, the Cardinals of the Catholic Church in proper procedure). It seems to accord with what I have referred to as a de facto/de jure distinction in the V2 pontiffs as to whether they are pope, but with more precision. I plan on reading up on the thesis, starting with Bishop Sanborn.

    I think pondering the issue of occult heretics and their place in the Church - having both a material (the body of the Church, of which they must be treated by men as members, as St. Robert notes) and a formal or spiritual dimension (whether they have the inner, spiritual bond with Christ that only comes with the Catholic faith) - perhaps dovetails nicely with the sedeprivationist understanding and lends some conceptual support to it.

    But I have some study to do.

    The issue of whether some (or all) of the V2 popes were purposely occult heretics by design to subvert the Church is deep and fascinating, and I could see a good argument made for some of them rather easily - John XXIII, Paul VI, for example.

    DR
    I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard

    Offline Endoplasmic Reticulum

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #235 on: November 07, 2019, 12:38:59 PM »
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  • Montinians such as Kramer are among the deceived.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #236 on: November 07, 2019, 10:30:14 PM »
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  • I like this old EC which was "enhanced" with the use of pictures!





    Posted by dxv515 June 06, 2013

     

     Bishop Williamson On The False Prophet Fr. Paul Kramer & WWIII

    Priscilla
    June 24, 1957

    Quote
    And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. Mt.xx.xi.
     
     Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. i.Jn.iv.I.


     Fasten Seatbelts
    Eleison Comments XIX 2007

     
     
    Prepare to fasten your seat-belts for the year 2008! It is always risky to announce dates for dramatic events in the future, because if they do not then happen, the doom-dater has only discredited himself. However, there is a triple convergence for next year which may be at least an “orange alert.”
     

     First and foremost there is the pressure building towards a Third World War, which may well be the beginning of the long-deserved chastisement of a globe turning its back on God. On the side of the United States there is an insane pressure group beating the war-drums for an attack upon Iran, when more and more now know that the disastrous attack upon Iraq was only made possible by fraud (9/11) and lies (WMD). On the side of Russia, President Putin has backed his good reasons for condemning any such attack with the threat to resist it.
     

     But the West’s vile media silence the reasons and step up the war-drums. President Bush announces he wishes to “prevent Iran’s nuclear capacity” before he leaves office – end of 2008 – and in 2007 we see a mounting economic and financial crisis within the USA and in the world which risks presenting him no later than 2008 with a virtually irresistible temptation to “busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels” (H-IV, Pt II).
     


     Secondly, two years ago Fr. Paul Kramer quoted in the “Fatima Crusader” a German priest (living) who may be privileged with prophetic gifts from Heaven, and who has foretold 2008 as the year for the outbreak of WWIII.
     

     Thirdly, one of the four girls from Northern Spain who saw Our Lady in Garabandal many times between 1962 and 1965 is reportedly giving March and April of 2008 as the months of the Great Warning and Great Miracle respectively. We shall see.
     

     The prophecy from Germany and report from Spain are worth no more than they are worth (nor less), but the realities from the USA and Russia are for real. It does no harm to take a little more seriously still our constant need to “pray without ceasing” (I Thess. V, 17). Kyrie Eleison.
     
     Bishop Richard Williamson

    La Reja, Argentina


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #237 on: November 08, 2019, 04:21:43 AM »
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  • Endoplasmic Recticulum is obviously hallucinating when he says I'm a "Montinian". Too many psychadelic mushrooms, it seems.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #238 on: November 14, 2019, 02:19:13 PM »
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  • There is no book review for this book on Amazon.com. Why hasn't anybody here done a review?
    UPDATE: There is now 1 review on Amazon:
    [/color]
    [url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 out of 5 stars[/i][/i][/color][/size][/color]
    October 5, 2019
    Format: Paperback
    This title is so very important to help answer the many questions about how the current occupant of the papacy, Francis I, can be working to lead the Catholic Church astray! Fr. Kramer has given us a magnificent, scholarly text to help us navigate these troubled times we are living through as Catholics. So many of us are totally dismayed about the novelties Francis is trying to introduce into the Church's life and teaching. Fr. Kramer helps us see why it is important for the faithful to ignore and resist all these errors and remain faithful to the traditional teaching of the Catholic Faith - regarding doctrine and morals. Fr. Kramer helps us see why Francis does not have the "grace of office" - and his false teachings are thus lacking in authority and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #239 on: November 14, 2019, 03:55:06 PM »
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  • "PaxChristi2", "Pax Vobis", John Salza, Robert Siscoe:

    The fact that no theologian or canonist on earth has ever taught that heresy is in its nature a crime would give pause to them to assert this theological-canonical monstrosity; but these fanatical legalist-fundamentalists are so blindly entrenched in their errors, that they seem to have become impervious to reason itself. Their error is as crude as saying that since Peter is white, therefore white is Peter -- Since what defines heresy falls within the parameters of the definition of a crime; crime therefore pertains to the nature of heresy! However, that which defines "crime" does not fall within the definition of heresy -- ERGO: Heresy is a crime because it falls within the defining parameters of a crime; but it is not in its nature a crime; because what defines "crime" does not fall within the definition of heresy. They still don't get it -- "Duh?"
         So, they perform an amputation of words on Fr. Charles Augustine's exposition on the nature of a crime, inverting his meaning to at least make it appear that the great scholar of canon law agrees with them. I provided the missing texts which expose their fraud, along with the exposition on the same canon in the Salamanca commentary. Ultimately  what they don't grasp is that even if heresy in its nature were an ecclesiastical delict (absurd on its face as that would be!), it would still sever one from the body of the Church by itself, suapte natura, without any judgment by the Church, because heresy is an act that by its nature separates the heretic from membership in the Church, as Mystici Corporis teaches, and St. Thomas explains exactly why, and the Fathers taught in unison (as Bellarmine explained); and ERGO: Heresy severs the juridical bond of membership in the Church ipso jure, and therefore without any penalty, declaration, or any act "by legitimate authority", which would be required for all other crimes to provoke a separation from membership in the Church (as Pius XII teaches in Mystici Corporis).

     

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