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Author Topic: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available  (Read 10313 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
« Reply #195 on: November 04, 2019, 11:02:57 PM »
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  • No it's not.  Read the quotations I provided from Bellarmine again.  The fact that is being judged is whether or not the Pope is a heretic, not whether he's the Pope.  If the Pope does not "publicly separate himself from the Church," the conviction of heresy is a condition for the ipso facto loss of office to take place.  There's no other way to interpret what Bellarmine wrote without entirely twisting his words.  

    If the pope had publicly separated from the Church, then yes, according to Bellarmine the bishops would simply declare that he had lost his office.  But if the fact of his heresy is not indisputably proven by his own act, the conviction of heresy is a condition for the ipso facto loss of office to take place.  Doubtful facts don't suffice.  If his own act does not entirely prove the fact of his heresy, the conviction is necessary to remove the doubt.  Without it, he remains Pope.  

    That's why Bellarmine makes a distinction between a Pope who publicly separates from the Church, and one who does not.  In the former case the act of the Pope himself provides indisputable proof of the fact of his heresy; in the latter case the discretionary judgment resulting in a "conviction" (the word Bellarmine uses repeatedly), is what removes the remaining doubt.  

    Question:

    On another thread, I perceived a discrepancy in the interpretation of Bellarmine’s position between Dr. Lamont and Siscoe/Salza (with the former contending Bellarmine claimed no intervention of the Church was necessary, and the latter claiming Bellarmine said Church intervention in a deposition was necessary).

    You seem to agree with the latter.

    May I ask if you have read Bellarmine in the Latin (or, if not, where you have found a trustworthy translation)?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #196 on: November 05, 2019, 01:44:43 AM »
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  • Question:

    On another thread, I perceived a discrepancy in the interpretation of Bellarmine’s position between Dr. Lamont and Siscoe/Salza (with the former contending Bellarmine claimed no intervention of the Church was necessary, and the latter claiming Bellarmine said Church intervention in a deposition was necessary).

    You seem to agree with the latter.

    May I ask if you have read Bellarmine in the Latin (or, if not, where you have found a trustworthy translation)?

    Yes, I've spent many months and hundreds of hours studying Bellarmine in both English and Latin.  I've also studied the teaching of all the Church Fathers he references to defend his position on the ipso facto loss of office.

    Bellarmine has a lot more to say about how heretical Pope (and heretical bishops) lose their office than most people realize.  Most people have only read his commentary on the Five Opinion, or rather, his commentary on the 4th and 5th Opinions, since that's what the Sedevacantists translated and spread around the internet.  If you only read his commentary on these two opinions, it is nearly impossible to understand what he means, and it is nearly impossible NOT to misunderstand him.

    For example, have you ever noticed how Bellarmine appears to directly contradict himself by saying, in the 5th Opinion (and 2nd) that a Pope who falls into occult heresy remains Pope, while in his commentary on the 4th Opinion he seems to say that exact opposite - that a Pope who loses the virtue of faith (i.e., an occult heretic) ceases to be Pope, since "the virtue of faith is a necessary disposition to retain the form of the Pontificate"?   Have you ever noticed that apparent contradiction?  I always noticed it.  I now know that he actually doesn't contradict himself, but you would never in a million years be able to figure out why, if all you had to go on is his commentary on those two opinions.

    Something almost no one understands (except John of St. Thomas) is that, in his commentary on the 4th and 5th Opinions, Bellarmine is not arguing that a Pope does not have to be "judged" before being ipso facto deposed.  What he is trying to prove is that a Pope does not have to be authoritatively deposed, to lose his office (since a Pope cannot be authoritatively deposed while he remains Pope).  That's what he's objecting to about Cajetan's opinion, and the contrary is what he's trying to prove in his commentary on the 5th Opinion.  

    But again, if you only read the 4th and 5th Opinions, you will easily conclude that Bellarmine believes an antecedent judgment is never required for a Pope to be ipso facto deposed, since he says (in the fifth opinion) that the reason a Pope can be "judged and punished" is because he is no longer the Pope.  But John of St. Thomas says the same and he defended Cajetan's opinion.  Nobody thinks the Pope can be "judged and punished" while he remains Pope, but they all say the Church can "judge" or "legitimately determine" to be a heretic while he remains Pope - all, that is, except those who adhered to the 2nd Opinion, since they had a difference explanation for how a Pope lose his office.

    So, I can certainly understand why Dr. Lamont drew the conclusion he did, but it's not what Bellarmine believed.  In fact, it is directly contradicted by both quotations I provided earlier in this thread and by others that I have not yet quoted.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #197 on: November 05, 2019, 08:14:06 AM »
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  • If you read carefully what Pope Celestine wrote, all he said is that the excommunications pronounced by Nestorius and his confreres were null and void, and that those they excommunication remained in communion with Rome. He never said Nestorius was ipso facto deposed before being judged by the Church.

    I completely disagree --
    https://novusordowatch.org/2016/02/nestorius-salza-siscoe/

    So does Cardinal Billot, who states that he had lost episcopal jurisdiction from the very time that he began publicly preaching his heresy.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #198 on: November 05, 2019, 08:17:21 AM »
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  • Nothing about the case of Nestorius supports the Sedevacantist understanding of how a “manifest heretic” loses his office. 

    No, it completely backs up the SEDEPRIVATIONIST understanding.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #199 on: November 05, 2019, 08:40:34 AM »
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  • Quote
    No it's not.  Read the quotations I provided from Bellarmine again.  The fact that is being judged is whether or not the Pope is a heretic, not whether he's the Pope.  If the Pope does not "publicly separate himself from the Church," the conviction of heresy is a condition for the ipso facto loss of office to take place.  There's no other way to interpret what Bellarmine wrote without entirely twisting his words.  

    If the pope had publicly separated from the Church, then yes, according to Bellarmine the bishops would simply declare that he had lost his office.  But if the fact of his heresy is not indisputably proven by his own act, the conviction of heresy is a condition for the ipso facto loss of office to take place.  Doubtful facts don't suffice.  If his own act does not entirely prove the fact of his heresy, the conviction is necessary to remove the doubt.  Without it, he remains Pope. 
    I completely agree with this. 
    .
    Scenario 1
    1) Aug 1 - Pope publically separates himself from the Church by becoming a Buddhist.
    2) Sept 1 - Bishops declare he has lost his office, "ipso facto" when he became a Buddhist on Aug 1.
    3) An election takes place.
    .
    Scenario 2
    1) Aug 1 - Pope makes heretical statements and acts.
    2) Aug 15 - Cardinals rebuke the pope for his errors and to confirm if he's obstinate.
    3) Sept 1 - Pope is obstinate and proves he's a heretic.  (Whether the Cardinals convict him or are convinced is irrelevant).
    4) Sept 15 - Cardinals declare that a heretic loses office "ipso facto" and thus he's no longer pope.
    5) The date for the pope vacating the office is irrelevant...it could either be Aug 1 or when they decided he was obstinate on Sept 1.  Or it could be Sept 15, the declaration.
    6) An election takes place.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #200 on: November 05, 2019, 08:44:36 AM »
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  • I completely agree with this.
    .
    Scenario 1
    1) Aug 1 - Pope publically separates himself from the Church by becoming a Buddhist.
    2) Sept 1 - Bishops declare he has lost his office, "ipso facto" when he became a Buddhist on Aug 1.
    3) An election takes place.
    .
    Scenario 2
    1) Aug 1 - Pope makes heretical statements and acts.
    2) Aug 15 - Cardinals rebuke the pope for his errors and to confirm if he's obstinate.
    3) Sept 1 - Pope is obstinate and proves he's a heretic.  (Whether the Cardinals convict him or are convinced is irrelevant).
    4) Sept 15 - Cardinals declare that a heretic loses office "ipso facto" and thus he's no longer pope.
    5) The date for the pope vacating the office is irrelevant...it could either be Aug 1 or when they decided he was obstinate on Sept 1.  Or it could be Sept 15, the declaration.
    6) An election takes place.
    Or Scenario 3
    1) The Pope makes a slew of heretical statements and acts.
    2) The Cardinals cheer him on.
    3) The Pope dies, his successor repeats the same.
    4) The Cardinals cheer him on.
    ...
    5) Continue until we get a married female pope. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #201 on: November 05, 2019, 08:46:13 AM »
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    So does Cardinal Billot, who states that he had lost episcopal jurisdiction from the very time that he began publicly preaching his heresy.
    The reason why Nestorious would lose jurisdiction immediately (or retroactively) is because he would be guilty under canon law.  But no one KNEW he was guilty, definitively, until the Church said so.  Before She decides, one could not say he had lost his office; only AFTER a church decision, would there be certitude that the original heresy was the point at which office was lost.
    .
    The same situation could apply to a pope, the difference being that canon law is not applied in the same way to a pope as to a bishop.  So, the Cardinals would decide if a heretical pope had lost his office either on the first act of heresy or at the time when the Cardinals determined he was obstinate.  The point is, no catholic could say that the pope isn't the pope until the Cardinals had declared such.  Even if their decision is retroactive, you can't go back in time, so there was no certitude at the first heretical act, only afterwards.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #202 on: November 05, 2019, 08:49:26 AM »
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  • Or Scenario 3
    1) The Pope makes a slew of heretical statements and acts.
    2) The Cardinals cheer him on.
    3) The Pope dies, his successor repeats the same.
    4) The Cardinals cheer him on.
    ...
    5) Continue until we get a married female pope.

    :laugh1:

    See, this is important.  If 90% of the so-called Church is infected with the same heresies (or other heresies), what does their "judgment" even mean?

    If we have a Pope who's an obvious heretic, if the Church goes on for 30 years without formally condemning him, because they're heretics or cowards or lazy, then you're saying that he remains the pope.  I think that's nonsense.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #203 on: November 05, 2019, 08:56:47 AM »
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  • another scenario --

    Pope Impius I makes obvious heretical statements (by his own admission):  "Yeah, I know the Church teaches this, but I refuse to believe it."

    There's a war shortly afterwards, preventing the convening of a General Council ... for about 10 years.

    So in the intervening time, Pope Impius I remains the Pope even though the Universal Church universally rejects him as a Pope ... simply because there's no official declaration?

    Certainly the CHURCH must acknowledge the heresy ... vs. the armchair theologian Aunt Flo ... but I reject the fact that this recognition by the Church must take any specific form.  Similarly, you could have a General Council vote to issue a declaration by 51% to 49%, but if the 49% remain firm in their conviction, there's no Universal Agreement.  So, in that case, despite the declaration, the Pope remains in a papa dubius state.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #204 on: November 05, 2019, 08:59:48 AM »
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  • Yes, in our current situation, a heretic pope would retain the material office, but his spiritual office would be impaired...for multiple reasons.  One being that Pius XII's changes to the election laws allow a spiritually impaired pope.  Two being that canon law changes since the 80s clearly allow a heretic to retain office until he is legally deposed.  To partially quote "Croix":  "Sedeprivationism for the win!"
    .
    The issue is that sedevacantists, generally speaking, have drawn a line in the sand and refuse to admit the distinction between the material and spiritual office.  So the debate continues...

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #205 on: November 05, 2019, 09:02:40 AM »
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  • And here's the problem that we're missing, folks.  We can keep quibbling about this issue forever.  But what Bellarmine and all these other Doctors had in mind was the case of a Pope who is PRIVATELY a heretic.  If this were a situation where Vatican II never happened, the Magisterium remained intact, and the New Mass never happened ... but Bergoglio was running around making heretical statements, then it would be matter of "Who cares?  Let the Cardinals sort this thing out."

    But what we have here is a defection of the Catholic Magisterium and Universal Discipline.  We know that these could not have come from legitimate authority.  Now, either these V2 papal claimants were blackmailed or otherwise coerced, and therefore these actions invalid, or else we know from this fact alone modus tollentis that they are not legitimate popes.  We're wasting too much time focused on the personal heresy issue.

    What's at stake is not merely the question of whether a particular person is a heretic, but rather it's the indefectibility of the Church, which R&R completely undermines.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #206 on: November 05, 2019, 09:04:00 AM »
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  • Quote
    Pope Impius I makes obvious heretical statements (by his own admission):  "Yeah, I know the Church teaches this, but I refuse to believe it."

    There's a war shortly afterwards, preventing the convening of a General Council ... for about 10 years.

    So in the intervening time, Pope Impius I remains the Pope even though the Universal Church universally rejects him as a Pope ... simply because there's no official declaration?
    The declaration concerns the material office.  The declaration is a legal recognition of heresy.  I agree with the sedes when they say that the pope "judges himself" when he becomes a heretic.  But this only applies to his spiritual office and the state of his soul.  It does not apply to his legal, governmental, material office, which requires a legal, governmental Church act to remove him.
    .
    So in the above scenario, yes, the pope would still be pope MATERIALLY.  Just like we've had 50 years of material-only, heresy-ridden popes.  Same situation.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #207 on: November 05, 2019, 09:06:19 AM »
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  • Yes, in our current situation, a heretic pope would retain the material office, but his spiritual office would be impaired...for multiple reasons.  One being that Pius XII's changes to the election laws allow a spiritually impaired pope.  Two being that canon law changes since the 80s clearly allow a heretic to retain office until he is legally deposed.  To partially quote "Croix":  "Sedeprivationism for the win!"
    .
    The issue is that sedevacantists, generally speaking, have drawn a line in the sand and refuse to admit the distinction between the material and spiritual office.  So the debate continues...

    Agreed.  This is what makes the most sense, and it also is completely consistent with Pope St. Celestine's statements regarding Nestorius.

    Some SVs have come around to sedeprivationism.  Some R&R, like Father Chazal, have come to a similar conclusion ... his sedimpoundism.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #208 on: November 05, 2019, 09:08:39 AM »
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  • The declaration concerns the material office.  The declaration is a legal recognition of heresy. 

    Agreed.

    Sometimes there's a lot of needless quibbling due precisely to the failure to apply a necessary distinction.  Once one makes the formal vs. material distinction, it becomes evident that both sides are right and both are wrong ... in different respects.  Most of the time when you have a dispute like this where both sides are making valid points, and yet both sides' positions have issues ... it's almost invariably due to a missing distinction.  We can thank Bishop Guerard for nailing it.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #209 on: November 05, 2019, 09:21:28 AM »
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  • Yes, I've spent many months and hundreds of hours studying Bellarmine in both English and Latin.  I've also studied the teaching of all the Church Fathers he references to defend his position on the ipso facto loss of office.

    Bellarmine has a lot more to say about how heretical Pope (and heretical bishops) lose their office than most people realize.  Most people have only read his commentary on the Five Opinion, or rather, his commentary on the 4th and 5th Opinions, since that's what the Sedevacantists translated and spread around the internet.  If you only read his commentary on these two opinions, it is nearly impossible to understand what he means, and it is nearly impossible NOT to misunderstand him.

    For example, have you ever noticed how Bellarmine appears to directly contradict himself by saying, in the 5th Opinion (and 2nd) that a Pope who falls into occult heresy remains Pope, while in his commentary on the 4th Opinion he seems to say that exact opposite - that a Pope who loses the virtue of faith (i.e., an occult heretic) ceases to be Pope, since "the virtue of faith is a necessary disposition to retain the form of the Pontificate"?   Have you ever noticed that apparent contradiction?  I always noticed it.  I now know that he actually doesn't contradict himself, but you would never in a million years be able to figure out why, if all you had to go on is his commentary on those two opinions.

    Something almost no one understands (except John of St. Thomas) is that, in his commentary on the 4th and 5th Opinions, Bellarmine is not arguing that a Pope does not have to be "judged" before being ipso facto deposed.  What he is trying to prove is that a Pope does not have to be authoritatively deposed, to lose his office (since a Pope cannot be authoritatively deposed while he remains Pope).  That's what he's objecting to about Cajetan's opinion, and the contrary is what he's trying to prove in his commentary on the 5th Opinion.  

    But again, if you only read the 4th and 5th Opinions, you will easily conclude that Bellarmine believes an antecedent judgment is never required for a Pope to be ipso facto deposed, since he says (in the fifth opinion) that the reason a Pope can be "judged and punished" is because he is no longer the Pope.  But John of St. Thomas says the same and he defended Cajetan's opinion.  Nobody thinks the Pope can be "judged and punished" while he remains Pope, but they all say the Church can "judge" or "legitimately determine" to be a heretic while he remains Pope - all, that is, except those who adhered to the 2nd Opinion, since they had a difference explanation for how a Pope lose his office.

    So, I can certainly understand why Dr. Lamont drew the conclusion he did, but it's not what Bellarmine believed.  In fact, it is directly contradicted by both quotations I provided earlier in this thread and by others that I have not yet quoted.

    Hello PaxChristi2-

    Thank you for this excellent reply.

    I asked about your ability to read Bellarmine in Latin because I myself am forced to rely upon the commentary of others, and for that reason, give a more serious reflection to the comments of those who can actually read what the great theologians said in their own words (ie., instead of passing around the same old copy/pasted translations which come from who knows where).

    If your broader understanding of Bellarmine described above is correct, then it would seem that preference has served me well.

    So presuming you have accurately described the true position of Bellarmine, we can then proceed to consider:

    1) Who was correct in the actual issue in dispute between him and Cajetan (and I guess JST, indirectly):

    Was it only necessary for the Church to declare the fact of the Pope's heresy (Bellarmine)

    Or,

    Was a second declaration announcing the consequent deposition also necessary (Cajetan/JST)?

    2) Is it possible (however unlikely) that all three were wrong?  I ask because of the problem some sedes raise (and which some in the thread above have raised):

    What if it is not only the Pope who is a heretic, but practically the entire Church hierarchy?  In such a case, the positions of Bellarmine, Cajetan, and JST make the recovery of the Church practically impossible, because sympathetic cardinals and bishops are never going to make even a first declaration announcing the fact of the Pope’s heresy (ie., which would be tantamount to a self-indictment of themselves).

    3) Because of the dilemma in #2, I am wondering if I have missed something (ie., there really is no dilemma, because I have failed to perceive a solution), I am wondering whether any of the three (or even others like Suarez, Torquemada, Vitoria, Billuart, Billot, et al) ever considered the possibility of a crisis of this magnitude, where the entire hierarchy is swept away by varying degrees of modernism?

    And if not, whether we should be looking somewhere else for the proper posture Catholics should have in today’s crisis vis-a-vis the hierarchy (though I would have no idea where)?

    Ps: May I ask whether you are of the priestly/religious or lay state?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."