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Author Topic: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available  (Read 32530 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
« Reply #180 on: November 04, 2019, 05:48:51 PM »
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  • So, to summarize,

    Nestorius was condemned by a divine sentence from the moment he began openly preaching heresy, and he lost episcopal jurisdiction (according to Billot) at that time, being powerless to remove people from office, but was still in a state of "to be removed."

    So he loses formal authority on account of heresy but only loses the office materially when he's formally stripped of it by the Church.  Bishop Guerard and, later, Father Chazal, had this exactly right.  Those priests who declared that "we have no bishop" were right, as are those who today say "we have no pope."  These papal claimants have been judged by divine sentence to be incapable of exercising authority and are "to be removed" by the Church ... to use the words of Father Chazal, they are impounded and quarantined, pending final removal by the Church.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #181 on: November 04, 2019, 05:50:44 PM »
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  • Quote
    In point of fact, Bergoglio ceased to be Pope on August 1st, and no appointments of his made after that time are valid.  Sure, a declaration might be in order to relieve said Catholics of their confusion, but it would not be necessary to determine that the bishops were not legitimately appointed.
    It would absolutely be necessary because we didn't know the pope ceased to be pope until AFTER the appointments were made.  30 days later.  So, yes, the point is that the Sept 1 declaration is imperative to let everyone know.
    .
    August 1st 2030:  Bergoglio declares:  "I have become a Buddhist."
    September 1st 2030:  nothing happens.

    Bergoglio continues to hold papal office.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #182 on: November 04, 2019, 05:52:51 PM »
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  • It would absolutely be necessary because we didn't know the pope ceased to be pope until AFTER the appointments were made.  30 days later.  So, yes, the point is that the Sept 1 declaration is imperative to let everyone know.
    .
    August 1st 2030:  Bergoglio declares:  "I have become a Buddhist."
    September 1st 2030:  nothing happens.

    Bergoglio continues to hold papal office.


    This is nonsense.  Every knew on August 1st that he was no longer Catholic.  Even S&S would admit that this would be the case, since that would be apostasy.

    So you're saying that if something, say a great war, intervened, and a General Council could not be convened for another 5 or 10 years, Bergoglio the self-declared Buddhist would remain the Pope of the Catholic Church.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #183 on: November 04, 2019, 05:54:57 PM »
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  • The difference is that canon law applies to a Bishop (Nestorious) in a different manner than it applies to a pope.  Because Nestorious would be condemned by the law by a superior (Pope Celestine), while a pope could only be condemned by the Cardinals (as the theory goes).

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #184 on: November 04, 2019, 05:58:21 PM »
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  • Quote
    So you're saying that if something, say a great war, intervened, and a General Council could not be convened for another 5 or 10 years, Bergoglio the self-declared Buddhist would remain the Pope of the Catholic Church.
    He may arguably still hold the material office.  He would surely be excommunicated immediately, but I'm arguing here about the material office, not the spiritual aspect, which it is fairly clear from most theologians that a heretic (of any degree) is spiritually impounded.
    .
    You keep going to back to sedeprivationism, which is the not the point of contention.  This thread was started under the assumption that +Francis does not hold office.  I argue that he does, materially. 
    .
    The phrase "we have no pope" is too general.  Spiritually, no we don't have a pope.  Materially, yes we do. 


    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #185 on: November 04, 2019, 06:35:26 PM »
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  • Do you have any citation from Bellarmine for this ^^?
    Here's one:

    “Next the same thing is proven from the testimonies of those Fathers, who teach with a general consensus that those who are outside of the Church have no authority or jurisdiction over the Church. And indeed, right reason itself manifestly teaches the same thing: for what arrangement can devised or how can it be imagined that one could have jurisdiction, and hence be head of the Church, who is not a member of the Church?  Who ever heard of a head who was not a member?  But it is certain, whatever one or another may think, that an occult heretic [i.e., not notorious by fact], if he be a bishop or even the supreme Pontiff, does not lose his jurisdiction, or dignity, or the title of head in the Church, until either he publicly separates himself from the Church or, being convicted of heresy, is separated against his will.” (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante, cap x).

    This proves two things: 1) Bellarmine does not exclude the need of an antecedent judgment for the Pope to be ipso facto deposed; and 2) he believes it is permitted for the Church to render a judgment that the Pope is a heretic, while he remains Pope.  The Church cannot judge him with a coactive judgment or exercise any authority or coercive force over him while he remains Pope, but it can render a discretionary judgement. Torquemada offers the following explanation of the difference between a discretionary judgment and a juridical (or coactive) judgment:  “What the canonists and theologians mean by a discretionary judgment is easily understood by this distinction: there is discernment and knowledge, which distinguishes between the true and the false [discretionary judgment]; and there is jurisdiction and authority, with the power to subject someone to the penalty of the decision [coactive judgment].  ... A discretionary judgment is for greater clarity. It does not decide a matter of faith, but looks to discern the knowledge of truth.”

    Bellarmine explains that a coercive or coactive judgment is that "of a judge properly so-called," while a discretionary judgement is similar that which is rendered by an Arbitrator.  The latter possesses the right to discuss a case, to determine facts, and to decide what should be done, but lacks the authority to compel the person or force him to obey his judgment.

    Bellarmine further explains that when the Popes have willingly submitted themselves to be “judged by men” – i.e., by a council or Emperor - and promised to obey the ruling, they submitted to a discretionary judgment.  He uses this point to refute an argument used by the heretics in an attempt to prove that a Pope can be authoritatively judged by men.  For example, in response to this argument: “Leo IV asked for judges from Emperor Louis and promised to obey their decisions, as is contained in the canons Nos so incompetenter 2, q. 7,” Bellarmine replied: “Leo subjected himself to the discretionary judgment of the Emperor, not the coactive, as is easily deduced from the same chapter.” (De Romano Pontifice, lib II, cap xxix).  

    So, it is not true to say that a Pope can never be “judged by men,” while he remains Pope.  It is only true to say that he can never be judged with a true coercive judgment while he remains Pope; that is, he cannot be “judged and punished” while he remains Pope. There are two instances when men are permitted to render a discretionary judgment against a sitting Pope: when he willingly submits to be judged, and when he is accused of heresy or infidelity.  

    In the latter case, at least according to the opinion of Bellarmine, if the bishops can “convict him of heresy” he will immediately be ipso facto deposed - not by the force of their judgment, but by God Himself who will not do so without it.  After convicting him of heresy, they would be able to “judge and punish him” (with a coactive judgement) by deposing him even against his will, since he would then no longer be Pope.  

    Let’s see how this would play out in light of another teaching of Bellarmine that, for some reason, Sedevacantists have chosen not to post on their websites:

    “The Roman Pontiff cannot be deprived of the right to summon a Council and preside over it – a right he has possessed for 1500 years – unless he were first legitimately judged and convicted [discretionary judgment], and is not the Supreme Pontiff.  (…) It could also happen that because the Pope is not the only judge in a Council, but has many colleagues, that is, all the Bishops, that if they could convict him of heresy, they could judge and depose him against his will.” (Bellarmine, De Concilii, lib 1, cap xxi).

    So, according to Bellarmine, if the bishops can convict a pope of heresy (discretionary judgment), they can “judge and depose him” (coactive judgment), since upon their conviction he immediately ceases to be Pope.  If, on the other hand, a Pope has not been “legitimately judged and convicted” (discretionary judgment), he will remain Pope and retain the right to summon and preside over a council.  

    Does that sound at all like the Sedevacantists interpretation and application of Bellarmine's teaching on the loss of office for an heretical Pope?  



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #186 on: November 04, 2019, 07:11:35 PM »
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  • The difference is that canon law applies to a Bishop (Nestorious) in a different manner than it applies to a pope.  Because Nestorious would be condemned by the law by a superior (Pope Celestine), while a pope could only be condemned by the Cardinals (as the theory goes).

    Please stop it with the Canon Law already.  Canon Law doesn't apply to a Pope.  This is not a statement of law, but a statement of principle and of fact.

    Beside that, you're missing the whole point, which is that Nestorius had NOT BEEN CONDEMNED yet by Pope St. Celestine, who nevertheless states that Nestorius lost his authority from the moment that he began to publicly preach his heresy ... prior to his condemnation and explicit removal from office by the Pope.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #187 on: November 04, 2019, 07:14:00 PM »
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  • He may arguably still hold the material office.  He would surely be excommunicated immediately, but I'm arguing here about the material office, not the spiritual aspect, which it is fairly clear from most theologians that a heretic (of any degree) is spiritually impounded.
    .
    You keep going to back to sedeprivationism, which is the not the point of contention.  This thread was started under the assumption that +Francis does not hold office.  I argue that he does, materially.
    .
    The phrase "we have no pope" is too general.  Spiritually, no we don't have a pope.  Materially, yes we do.

    Well, in that case, I have no dispute with you, nor would any sedeprivationist or sedeimpoundist (like Father Chazal) disagree that he retains material office until he's officially removed from it.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #188 on: November 04, 2019, 07:24:33 PM »
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  • This proves two things: 1) Bellarmine does not exclude the need of an antecedent judgment for the Pope to be ipso facto deposed; and 2) he believes it is permitted for the Church to render a judgment that the Pope is a heretic, while he remains Pope.  The Church cannot judge him with a coactive judgment or exercise any authority or coercive force over him while he remains Pope, but it can render a discretionary judgement. Torquemada offers the following explanation of the difference between a discretionary judgment and a juridical (or coactive) judgment:  “What the canonists and theologians mean by a discretionary judgment is easily understood by this distinction: there is discernment and knowledge, which distinguishes between the true and the false [discretionary judgment]; and there is jurisdiction and authority, with the power to subject someone to the penalty of the decision [coactive judgment].  ... A discretionary judgment is for greater clarity. It does not decide a matter of faith, but looks to discern the knowledge of truth.”

    That is what I've been saying this entire thread, such a "declaration" has no actual force but is merely the act of the Church "making up her mind", i.e. is the Church "[looking] to discern the knowledge of truth."

    What then does being "convicted" of heresy mean in Bellarmine, since the Pope cannot be convicted in any juridical manner.  Recall that the Latin root of the word "convict" is "convinco".  In other words, it's simply a way to say that the Church has become convinced, or has definitely decided, that the man is in fact a heretic.

    Bergoglio:  "I believe X, and X is consistent with Catholic truth."
    Church:  "No, X is heretical.  Recant X."
    Bergoglio"  "No, I won't recant."
    Church:  "Oh, yes you will."
    Bergoglio:  "Nope."
    Church agrees that Bergoglio is a heretic and has lost office.

    This is the "against his will" scenario of Bellarmine.

    But if Bergoglio were to simply state:  "I know that the Church teaches transubstantiation, but I don't believe it anyway."  That's a scenario where he separates himself.  No "conviction" or "declaration" of any kind if required in that scenario.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #189 on: November 04, 2019, 07:37:50 PM »
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  • So, it is not true to say that a Pope can never be “judged by men,” while he remains Pope.

    Of course it's true.  What's taking place in this kind of scenario is that the Church is making a judgement ABOUT the Pope, or, rather, former Pope, but is not judging him per se.  It is not the Pope who is the object of this judgment, but rather the fact, the proposition, that this man has left the Church and is no longer pope.  The Church is making the judgement, arriving at the conclusion, averring the a priori fact that "Bergoglio [for instance] has left the Church."

    So the departure of Bergoglio must come prior to the judgment; otherwise the Church would in fact be judging the Pope, which in fact is not permissible.  Something is true in and of itself, ontologically, or quoad se a priori to the subject recognizing it as a true object.  Otherwise, you're no different than the phenomenologists who claim that something becomes true only when it's known to be true.  But, in reality, our knowing something to be true does not cause it to be true.  Rather, its being true is the cause of our knowing it to be true.

    Now, the knowledge of its being true is what renders the truth manifest.  So it's when the Church comes to know or to realize that it's true that it becomes "manifest".  Otherwise, it might as well be occult.

    But the Church can universally know something to be true without there being any formal declaration.  And, conversely, there can be a formal declaration (let's say arrived at by majority vote at a General Council) without the Church universally knowing it to be true.

    So the criterion is not any kind of formal declaration, but the universal acknowledgement of its truth.  If there were a declaration issued by a 51% majority at a General Council, but the 49% minority held fast in their conviction, then the declaration would have no meaning, since what is essential is the universal consensus of the Church, and the declaration must simply be a manifestation of that consensus or conviction.  Now, if after some time, the minority were to acquiesce to the majority, then at THAT point there would be the requisite universal consensus.

    In the case that the Church is divided, the pope remains in a papa dubius condition.  But even if the Church is divided, there's ontologically and in reality still only one legitimate pope ... as there was in fact a legitimate Pope during the so-called Western schism.

    Similarly, cases have been cited where a legitimate Pope received universal acceptance, but then was hauled off and jailed, another one elected in his place, and the subsequent pope in turn received universal acceptance.  So it is possible for the Church to be in material error regarding the identity of the true pope, or in a state of doubt or uncertainty.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #190 on: November 04, 2019, 07:48:24 PM »
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  • Your main problem is that you are falsely equating the Latin convincere with a legal conviction ... being the lawyer that you were.  There's no conviction of a pope going on here, but the act of the Church being "convinced" that he is no longer the Pope.  There's no juridical process of any kind here, since in fact it IS true that the pope cannot be judged.

    428:  Nestorius begins preaching heresy.
    431:  Pope St. Celestine declares him guilty of heresy and deprived of office.  He declares that Nestorius had no authority since 428.

    August 1, 2020:  Bergoglio delcares, "I know the Church teaches Transubstatiation, but I do not believe it."
    Sepetember 1, 2020:  Church convenes and makes the declaration that Bergoglio has left the Church. (takes a while to get everyone flown in).
    Bergoglio left the Church on August 1 and not on September 1.  This declaration had no effect, since it was already manifestly true to the entire Church by August 1 that Bergoglio had left the Church.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #191 on: November 04, 2019, 09:37:38 PM »
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  • This is a semantics argument.  The point is that the declaration is absolutely necessary.  We can debate the theological meaning of it, or what it provides, but without a declaration, 1) the pope is not declared a heretic 2) the pope does not lose his office, and 3) there is no church unity on the matter.  
    .
    These 3 things are the purpose of the declaration, without which there is chaos and confusion, as our current times prove in spades. 

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #192 on: November 04, 2019, 10:20:32 PM »
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  • Pope Celestine's letter regarding Nestorius completely backs up sedeprivationism.

    St. Robert Bellarmine, quoting Pope St. Celestine:

    Pope Celestine I, in an epistle to John of Antioch, which is contained in Volume One of the Council of Ephesus, ch. 19, says: “If anyone who was either excommunicated or exiled by Bishop Nestorius, or any that followed him, from such a time as he began to preach such things, whether they be from the dignity of a bishop or clergy, it is manifest that he has endured and endures in our communion, nor do we judge him outside, because he could not remove anyone by a sentence, who himself had already shown that he must be removed.” And in a letter to the clergy of Constantinople: “The Authority of our See has sanctioned, that the bishop, cleric or Christian by simple profession who had been deposed or excommunicated by Nestorius or his followers, after the latter began to preach heresy, shall not be considered deposed or excommunicated. For he who had defected from the faith with such preaching, cannot depose or remove anyone whatsoever.”

    This pretty much closes the book in Siscoe and Salsa.
    If you read carefully what Pope Celestine wrote, all he said is that the excommunications pronounced by Nestorius and his confreres were null and void, and that those they excommunication remained in communion with Rome. He never said Nestorius was ipso facto deposed before being judged by the Church.

    Before considering the historical facts of the case, let’s see what the Sedevacantist apologists say it proves:

    “The Remnant also contradicts Pope St. Celestine I and St. Robert Bellarmine who both taught that warnings are not necessary to prove defection of faith. Bellarmine put it this way: ‘And in a letter to the clergy of Constantinople, Pope St. Celestine I says: “The authority of Our Apostolic See has determined that the bishop, cleric, or simple Christian who had been deposed or excommunicated by Nestorius or his followers, after the latter began to preach heresy shall not be considered deposed or excommunicated. For he who had defected from the faith with such preachings, cannot depose or remove anyone whatsoever”.’  In other words, Nestorius lost his office immediately after he began preaching heresy, which is why he had no authority to depose or remove anyone. It happens by Divine law, not by sentence of Church law.” (Steve Speary)
     
    “The Catholics who immediately rejected Nestorius, until then Patriarch of Alexandria (sic), when he began preaching heresy, were justified by the pope after the fact. Their excommunications were declared to have been null and void, because ‘…he who had defected from the faith with such preachings, cannot depose or remove anyone whatsoever.’ (Quoted by Bellarmine.) In other words, once he became a public heretic he lost his office, automatically and without any declaration by Rome.” (John Lane)
     
    They both interpret Celestine statement that those who were excommunicated by Nestorius remained in communion with him, as meaning Nestorius automatically lost his office, the moment he began preaching heresy, without the need of any warnings, antecedent judgement or declaration.
     
    The facts of the case prove otherwise, as we will now see.
     
    Nestorius first professed his heresy in December of 428, and persecute those who resisted him.  He was sent two warnings by the Patriarch of Alexandria, St. Cyril, and rejected them both.  In spite of what Pius IX called “the hardened pertinacity of Nestorius,” St. Cyril did not consider him “ipso facto deposed,” or cut off communion with him, without first appealing to Rome for a judgment.  In his letter to Pope Celstine, he wrote: “The ancient custom of the Churches admonishes us that matters of this kind should be communicated to Your Holiness… But we do not openly and publicly forsake his Communion before indicating these things to your piety. Vouchsafe, therefore, to prescribe what you feel in this matter so that it may be clearly known to us whether we must communicate with him or whether we should freely declare to him that no one can communicate with one who cherishes and preaches suchlike erroneous doctrine.”
     
    In response, Pope Celestine convened a council in Rome in August of 430, and Nestorius was found guilty as charged.  The Pope gave St. Cyril the task sending Nestorius a third and final warning, informing him that he had 10 days to renounces his errors and subscribe to the 12 article that had been drawn up by the council.  If not, he would be cut off from communion with the Church and deposed.
     
    Before receiving the final warning, Nestorius petitioned the Emperor to call a general council to decide the matter, which he did. When Cyril informed the Celestine, the Pope agreed to keep the sentence of deposition in abeyance until the council had rendered a judgment, in the hope that the additional time would allow Nestorius to renounce his heresies.  Instead, Nestorius failed to even attend the council and was deposed. 
    St. Alphonsus relates all these events and ends by noting that Nestorius remained in possession of his See till the council judged and deposed him.  The following is taken from his book, “History of Heresy”:
     
    St. Alphonsus, History of Heresy, and their Refutation:26. St. Cyril, in discharge of the commission to which he was appointed by the Pope, convoked a Council, in Alexandria, of all the Bishops of Egypt, and then, in the name of the Council, wrote a Synodical letter to Nestorius, as the third and last admonition; telling him that, if in the term of ten days after the receipt of that letter, he did not retract what he had preached, those Fathers would have no more communication with him, that they would no longer consider him as a Bishop, and that they would hold communion with all clergymen and laymen deposed or excommunicated by him  (…) St. Cyril appointed four Egyptian Bishops to certify to Nestorius the authenticity of this letter, and two others one to the people of Constantinople, and another to the abbots of the monasteries, to give them notice likewise of the letter having been expedited. These Prelates arrived in Constantinople on the 7th of the following month of December, 430  (22), and intimated to Nestorius the sentence of deposition passed by the Pope, if he did not retract in ten days; but the Emperor Theodosius, previous to their arrival, had given orders for the convocation of a General Council, at the solicitation both of the Catholics, induced to ask for it by the monks, so cruelly treated by Nestorius, and of Nestorius himself, who hoped to carry his point by means of the Bishops of his party, and through favour of the Court. St. Cyril, therefore, wrote anew to St. Celestine, asking him (23), whether, in case of the retractation of Nestorius, the Council should receive him, as Bishop, into communion, and pardon his past faults, or put into execution the sentence of deposition already published against him. St. Celestine answered, that, notwithstanding the prescribed time had passed, he was satisfied that the sentence of deposition should be kept in abeyance, to give time to Nestorius to change his conduct. Nestorius thus remained in possession of his See till the decision of the Council. This condescension of St. Celestine was praised in the Council afterwards, by the Legates, and was contrasted with the irreligious obstinacy of Nestorius.”
     
    Nothing about the case of Nestorius supports the Sedevacantist understanding of how a “manifest heretic” loses his office.  Speray appealed to the case to prove warnings are not necessary, yet Nestorius was issued three.  John Lane appeals to it to prove that a declaration from Rome is not necessary, when in fact the Pope himself judged the case before Nestorius lost his office.  And they both appeal to it to prove a prelate who preaches heresy is immediately cut off from the Church, and as a result automatically loses his office by divine law; yet Nestorius was recognized by St. Cyril, Doctor of the Church, and the Pope himself as remaining “in communion with the Church” and retaining his See for years after he began preaching heresy.  St. Alphonsus, another Doctor of the Church, who studied that case thoroughly, said in no uncertain terms that Nestorius remained in possession of his See until he was deposed by the Council of Ephesus in 431.
     
    What the historical case of Nestorius does prove is that an excommunication imposed by a heretical prelate against those who resist his errors, is null and void, and will eventually be declared so.  That, and it also proves that if a Patriarch – or higher - publicly preaches heresy he will not be ipso facto deposed, without first being warned multiple times and judged by the Church … and maybe not even then.
     
    It is also worth noting that this is the only historical case Bellarmine used in an attempt to refute Cajetan’s opinion, yet if anything it does the opposite.  And you can rest assured that if Bellarmine were aware of any better historical examples - such as any bishops who were ipso facto deposed during the Arian crisis - he would have used them instead.  

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #193 on: November 04, 2019, 10:45:38 PM »
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  • Of course it's true.  What's taking place in this kind of scenario is that the Church is making a judgement ABOUT the Pope, or, rather, former Pope, but is not judging him per se.  It is not the Pope who is the object of this judgment, but rather the fact, the proposition, that this man has left the Church and is no longer pope.  The Church is making the judgement, arriving at the conclusion, averring the a priori fact that "Bergoglio [for instance] has left the Church."

    No it's not.  Read the quotations I provided from Bellarmine again.  The fact that is being judged is whether or not the Pope is a heretic, not whether he's the Pope.  If the Pope does not "publicly separate himself from the Church," the conviction of heresy is a condition for the ipso facto loss of office to take place.  There's no other way to interpret what Bellarmine wrote without entirely twisting his words.  

    If the pope had publicly separated from the Church, then yes, according to Bellarmine the bishops would simply declare that he had lost his office.  But if the fact of his heresy is not indisputably proven by his own act, the conviction of heresy is a condition for the ipso facto loss of office to take place.  Doubtful facts don't suffice.  If his own act does not entirely prove the fact of his heresy, the conviction is necessary to remove the doubt.  Without it, he remains Pope.  

    That's why Bellarmine makes a distinction between a Pope who publicly separates from the Church, and one who does not.  In the former case the act of the Pope himself provides indisputable proof of the fact of his heresy; in the latter case the discretionary judgment resulting in a "conviction" (the word Bellarmine uses repeatedly), is what removes the remaining doubt.  


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #194 on: November 04, 2019, 10:55:38 PM »
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  • If you read carefully what Pope Celestine wrote, all he said is that the excommunications pronounced by Nestorius and his confreres were null and void, and that those they excommunication remained in communion with Rome. He never said Nestorius was ipso facto deposed before being judged by the Church.

    Before considering the historical facts of the case, let’s see what the Sedevacantist apologists say it proves:

    “The Remnant also contradicts Pope St. Celestine I and St. Robert Bellarmine who both taught that warnings are not necessary to prove defection of faith. Bellarmine put it this way: ‘And in a letter to the clergy of Constantinople, Pope St. Celestine I says: “The authority of Our Apostolic See has determined that the bishop, cleric, or simple Christian who had been deposed or excommunicated by Nestorius or his followers, after the latter began to preach heresy shall not be considered deposed or excommunicated. For he who had defected from the faith with such preachings, cannot depose or remove anyone whatsoever”.’  In other words, Nestorius lost his office immediately after he began preaching heresy, which is why he had no authority to depose or remove anyone. It happens by Divine law, not by sentence of Church law.” (Steve Speary)
     
    “The Catholics who immediately rejected Nestorius, until then Patriarch of Alexandria (sic), when he began preaching heresy, were justified by the pope after the fact. Their excommunications were declared to have been null and void, because ‘…he who had defected from the faith with such preachings, cannot depose or remove anyone whatsoever.’ (Quoted by Bellarmine.) In other words, once he became a public heretic he lost his office, automatically and without any declaration by Rome.” (John Lane)

    They both interpret Celestine statement that those who were excommunicated by Nestorius remained in communion with him, as meaning Nestorius automatically lost his office, the moment he began preaching heresy, without the need of any warnings, antecedent judgement or declaration.

    The facts of the case prove otherwise, as we will now see.

    Nestorius first professed his heresy in December of 428, and persecute those who resisted him.  He was sent two warnings by the Patriarch of Alexandria, St. Cyril, and rejected them both.  In spite of what Pius IX called “the hardened pertinacity of Nestorius,” St. Cyril did not consider him “ipso facto deposed,” or cut off communion with him, without first appealing to Rome for a judgment.  In his letter to Pope Celstine, he wrote: “The ancient custom of the Churches admonishes us that matters of this kind should be communicated to Your Holiness… But we do not openly and publicly forsake his Communion before indicating these things to your piety. Vouchsafe, therefore, to prescribe what you feel in this matter so that it may be clearly known to us whether we must communicate with him or whether we should freely declare to him that no one can communicate with one who cherishes and preaches suchlike erroneous doctrine.”

    In response, Pope Celestine convened a council in Rome in August of 430, and Nestorius was found guilty as charged.  The Pope gave St. Cyril the task sending Nestorius a third and final warning, informing him that he had 10 days to renounces his errors and subscribe to the 12 article that had been drawn up by the council.  If not, he would be cut off from communion with the Church and deposed.

    Before receiving the final warning, Nestorius petitioned the Emperor to call a general council to decide the matter, which he did. When Cyril informed the Celestine, the Pope agreed to keep the sentence of deposition in abeyance until the council had rendered a judgment, in the hope that the additional time would allow Nestorius to renounce his heresies.  Instead, Nestorius failed to even attend the council and was deposed.  
    St. Alphonsus relates all these events and ends by noting that Nestorius remained in possession of his See till the council judged and deposed him.  The following is taken from his book, “History of Heresy”:

    St. Alphonsus, History of Heresy, and their Refutation:26. St. Cyril, in discharge of the commission to which he was appointed by the Pope, convoked a Council, in Alexandria, of all the Bishops of Egypt, and then, in the name of the Council, wrote a Synodical letter to Nestorius, as the third and last admonition; telling him that, if in the term of ten days after the receipt of that letter, he did not retract what he had preached, those Fathers would have no more communication with him, that they would no longer consider him as a Bishop, and that they would hold communion with all clergymen and laymen deposed or excommunicated by him  (…) St. Cyril appointed four Egyptian Bishops to certify to Nestorius the authenticity of this letter, and two others one to the people of Constantinople, and another to the abbots of the monasteries, to give them notice likewise of the letter having been expedited. These Prelates arrived in Constantinople on the 7th of the following month of December, 430  (22), and intimated to Nestorius the sentence of deposition passed by the Pope, if he did not retract in ten days; but the Emperor Theodosius, previous to their arrival, had given orders for the convocation of a General Council, at the solicitation both of the Catholics, induced to ask for it by the monks, so cruelly treated by Nestorius, and of Nestorius himself, who hoped to carry his point by means of the Bishops of his party, and through favour of the Court. St. Cyril, therefore, wrote anew to St. Celestine, asking him (23), whether, in case of the retractation of Nestorius, the Council should receive him, as Bishop, into communion, and pardon his past faults, or put into execution the sentence of deposition already published against him. St. Celestine answered, that, notwithstanding the prescribed time had passed, he was satisfied that the sentence of deposition should be kept in abeyance, to give time to Nestorius to change his conduct. Nestorius thus remained in possession of his See till the decision of the Council. This condescension of St. Celestine was praised in the Council afterwards, by the Legates, and was contrasted with the irreligious obstinacy of Nestorius.”

    Nothing about the case of Nestorius supports the Sedevacantist understanding of how a “manifest heretic” loses his office.  Speray appealed to the case to prove warnings are not necessary, yet Nestorius was issued three.  John Lane appeals to it to prove that a declaration from Rome is not necessary, when in fact the Pope himself judged the case before Nestorius lost his office.  And they both appeal to it to prove a prelate who preaches heresy is immediately cut off from the Church, and as a result automatically loses his office by divine law; yet Nestorius was recognized by St. Cyril, Doctor of the Church, and the Pope himself as remaining “in communion with the Church” and retaining his See for years after he began preaching heresy.  St. Alphonsus, another Doctor of the Church, who studied that case thoroughly, said in no uncertain terms that Nestorius remained in possession of his See until he was deposed by the Council of Ephesus in 431.

    What the historical case of Nestorius does prove is that an excommunication imposed by a heretical prelate against those who resist his errors, is null and void, and will eventually be declared so.  That, and it also proves that if a Patriarch – or higher - publicly preaches heresy he will not be ipso facto deposed, without first being warned multiple times and judged by the Church … and maybe not even then.

    It is also worth noting that this is the only historical case Bellarmine used in an attempt to refute Cajetan’s opinion, yet if anything it does the opposite.  And you can rest assured that if Bellarmine were aware of any better historical examples - such as any bishops who were ipso facto deposed during the Arian crisis - he would have used them instead.  

    Excellent post.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."