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Author Topic: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available  (Read 32571 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
« Reply #150 on: November 03, 2019, 07:51:21 PM »
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  • But the declaration is the recognition of the fact of “defection of faith”.  Just like a judge’s recognition of a jury’s guilty verdict is the recognition of a crime.  There is no crime (in temporal terms) until the Church rules.  The pope could be guilty of heresy spiritually (ie between him and God) but this cannot be recognized (or acted upon) in any way until the Church confirms this fact.  

    Offline AlbertP

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #151 on: November 03, 2019, 08:56:18 PM »
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  • Commentary on Canon 194 from New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, by Beal, Coriden, and Green:
     
     

    Quote
    Removal by Law
     
     
    Canon 194 -- §1. The following are removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself:
    1 a person who has lost the clerical state;
    2 a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church;
    3 a cleric who has attempted marriage even if only civilly.
     
    §2. The removal mentioned in nn. 2 and 3 can be enforced only if it is established by the declaration of a competent authority.
     
           For all three situations competent authority must intervene.  The clerical state is lost by declaration of invalidity of orders, imposition of the penalty of dismissal, or dispensation (c. 290); competent authority must act for each of these.
           In the other two situations of canon 194, competent authority declares the removal.  These both involve delicts by the officeholder, and removal has the effect of a penalty.  The canon is an exception to penal law, for removal from office is a permanent expiatory penalty (c. 1336 1, 2) which normally cannot be imposed or declared by decree (c. 1342. 2).  Nevertheless, competent authority must determine the facts of the case and provide the officeholder with an opportunity to be heard (c. 50) before issuing the decree containing the reasons for removal and communicating this to the officeholder (c.51).
           Public defection from the Catholic faith is similar to but not precisely the same as apostasy (which is total repudiation of the Christian faith – c. 751); public defection from communion of the Church is similar to but not precisely the same as schism (which is defection from Catholic communion – c. 751). … Neither is it required that the officeholder join another religion, although this could be an objective indication of defection. …
           In the case of defection or clergy attempting marriage, the declaration by competent authority is similar to the declaration at the end of a term of office or completion of age.  The fact on which the loss of office is based does not depend on the authority’s declaration, but its effectiveness does.  The officeholder remains in office, and actions which require the office are valid, until the declaration of removal is communicated in writing. (New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law)


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #152 on: November 04, 2019, 04:07:05 AM »
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  • The appeal to the explanation of Beal is futile; since all arguments which say that the defector who has lost office ipso jure remains in office until the declaration is issued is against reason. It involves a fatal contradiction. How can one who has actually lost office ipso jure still remain in office until the declaration is issued? It is an absolute impossibility.
         Pax Vobis resorts to mendacious sophistry: 《Just like a judge’s recognition of a jury’s guilty verdict is the recognition of a crime.  There is no crime (in temporal terms) until the Church rules.》In penal law, one is not presumed to have incurred a penalty unless the competent authotity has declared it. Canon 194 is an administrative canon. The loss of office prescribed in this canon is not a penalty. Penal deprivation of office is dealt with separately in the penal section of the Code. Loss of office in this case does not depend on the commission of a crime or its juridical recognition; but the statute decrees the loss of office ipso jurebon the sole basis of the public fact of defection. The propisition therefore, is manifestly false that: 《The point is, without the declaration, there is no loss of office.  The declaration is the enforcement; without enforcement, there is no punishment for the crime.  》The loss of office is not a punishment for a crime; but is the natural effect of defetion from the faith, which is why St. Robert Bellarmine explains that it is unanimously taught by the Fathers that heretics lose office entirely by themselves, ipso facto, and not by the force of any human law, but ex natura hæresis. Thus, the fall from office takes place independently of the jurisdiction of the Church; and, as Suárez proves, papal loss of office cannot take place by the force of any human law.*  Therefore, the administrative laws of the Church merely recognize the nature of the ipso facto loss of office as being ex natura hæresis, and accordingly statutes that such a loss of office takes place ipso jure. Refuting all of those who held that loss of office takes place as a penalty for having violated ecclesiastical laws, St. Robert Bellarmine in Book II Chapter XXX of De Romano Pontifice cites Aquinas, saying, “St. Thomas teaches that schismatics straightaway loose all jurisdiction”; and cites the unanimous teaching of the Fathers: “Nor does the response which some make avail, that these Fathers speak according to ancient laws, but now since the decree of the Council of Constance they do not lose jurisdiction, unless excommunicated by name, or if they strike clerics. I say this avails to nothing. For those Fathers, when they say that heretics lose jurisdiction, do not allege any human laws which maybe did not exist then on this matter; rather, they argued from the nature of heresy … Yet heretics are outside the Church, even before excommunication, and deprived of all jurisdiction, for they are condemned by their own judgment, as the Apostle teaches to Titus; that is, they are cut from the body of the Church without excommunication, as Jerome expresses it.”  In the previous sentence, Bellarmine established the unanimity of the Fathers, quoting an impressive array of Fathers, saying, “the Holy Fathers teach in unison, that not only are heretics outside the Church, but they even lack all Ecclesiastical jurisdiction and dignity ipso facto.” 

    * R. P. Francisci Suarez, Opera Omnia, Paris 1863 (Vivés), Tomus Doudecimus, Tractatus Primus, De Fide Theologica. Disputatio X. De Summo Pontifice, Sect. VI. p. 316: «…nec vere cadere potest Pontifex ipso facto a sua dignitate propter jus humanum, tum quia illud esset latum vel ab inferiori, scilicet concilio, vel ab æquali, nempe preedecessore Papa; at neuter horum habet vim coactivam, ut punire valeat Pontificem æqualem, vel superiorem»

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #153 on: November 04, 2019, 04:11:39 AM »
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  • The appeal to the explanation of Beal is futile; since all arguments which say that the defector who has lost office ipso jure remains in office until the declaration is issued is against reason. It involves a fatal contradiction. How can one who has actually lost office ipso jure still remain in office until the declaration is issued? It is an absolute impossibility.
         Pax Vobis resorts to mendacious sophistry: 《Just like a judge’s recognition of a jury’s guilty verdict is the recognition of a crime.  There is no crime (in temporal terms) until the Church rules.》In penal law, one is not presumed to have incurred a penalty unless the competent authotity has declared it. Canon 194 is an administrative canon. The loss of office prescribed in this canon is not a penalty. Penal deprivation of office is dealt with separately in the penal section of the Code. Loss of office in this case does not depend on the commission of a crime or its juridical recognition; but the statute decrees the loss of office ipso jure on the sole basis of the public fact of defection. The proposition therefore, is manifestly false that: 《The point is, without the declaration, there is no loss of office.  The declaration is the enforcement; without enforcement, there is no punishment for the crime.  》The loss of office is not a punishment for a crime; but is the natural effect of defection from the faith, which is why St. Robert Bellarmine explains that it is unanimously taught by the Fathers that heretics lose office entirely by themselves, ipso facto, and not by the force of any human law, but ex natura hæresis. Thus, the fall from office takes place independently of the jurisdiction of the Church; and, as Suárez proves, papal loss of office cannot take place by the force of any human law.*  Therefore, the administrative laws of the Church merely recognize the nature of the ipso facto loss of office as being ex natura hæresis, and accordingly statutes that such a loss of office takes place ipso jure. Refuting all of those who held that loss of office takes place as a penalty for having violated ecclesiastical laws, St. Robert Bellarmine in Book II Chapter XXX of De Romano Pontifice cites Aquinas, saying, “St. Thomas teaches that schismatics straightaway loose all jurisdiction”; and cites the unanimous teaching of the Fathers: “Nor does the response which some make avail, that these Fathers speak according to ancient laws, but now since the decree of the Council of Constance they do not lose jurisdiction, unless excommunicated by name, or if they strike clerics. I say this avails to nothing. For those Fathers, when they say that heretics lose jurisdiction, do not allege any human laws which maybe did not exist then on this matter; rather, they argued from the nature of heresy … Yet heretics are outside the Church, even before excommunication, and deprived of all jurisdiction, for they are condemned by their own judgment, as the Apostle teaches to Titus; that is, they are cut from the body of the Church without excommunication, as Jerome expresses it.”  In the previous sentence, Bellarmine established the unanimity of the Fathers, quoting an impressive array of Fathers, saying, “the Holy Fathers teach in unison, that not only are heretics outside the Church, but they even lack all Ecclesiastical jurisdiction and dignity ipso facto.” 

    * R. P. Francisci Suarez, Opera Omnia, Paris 1863 (Vivés), Tomus Doudecimus, Tractatus Primus, De Fide Theologica. Disputatio X. De Summo Pontifice, Sect. VI. p. 316: «…nec vere cadere potest Pontifex ipso facto a sua dignitate propter jus humanum, tum quia illud esset latum vel ab inferiori, scilicet concilio, vel ab æquali, nempe preedecessore Papa; at neuter horum habet vim coactivam, ut punire valeat Pontificem æqualem, vel superiorem»


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #154 on: November 04, 2019, 05:21:17 AM »
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  • Canon Law doesn't apply to the Pope, period ... unless it's also a matter of divine law, but in that case, it's the divine law which applies to the pope and not the canonical expression thereof.
    Fr. Hesse disagrees that CL does not apply to the pope. He basically says a pope can change a canon law, but he is not above CL. It just makes sense.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #155 on: November 04, 2019, 05:39:46 AM »
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  • The pope is not bound by those precepts he imposes on his subjects. He is bound by all laws founded on divine or natural law; and he is bound by procedural law; since the validity of juridical acts hinges on the following the procedural requirements which establush their validity.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #156 on: November 04, 2019, 07:54:50 AM »
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  • Congenital sophist, "Pax Vobis" says, 《The pope could be guilty of heresy spiritually (ie between him and God) but this cannot be recognized (or acted upon) in any way until the Church confirms this fact. 

    FALSE: The proposition is a grave error against moral teaching. The public fact of manifestly formal heresy can be recognized for what it is by anyone who is mentally capable of making such a judgment of conscience, and such judgments are sometimes morally necessary. Public defection into heresy when  it is in no way morally excusable, is manifestly not merely "between him and God". The recognition of public defection can be acted upon by withdrawing from obedience to the defector, who, by his defection, has visibly severed himself from the body of the Church. Such a judgment is a legitimate act of concience, and is not to be confused with the Protestant error of Private Judgment, which usurps the authority of the ecclesiastical magisterium.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #157 on: November 04, 2019, 08:27:25 AM »
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  • Don P,
    You, like most other sedes, ignore the heretical aspect of obstinacy, when applying canon law to manifest heresy.  Yes, all catholics can recognize heresy/error spoken in public.  Yes, all catholics have a duty to challenge such heretical acts or words.  Yes, all catholics have a duty to separate themselves from such individuals.
    .
    But...when we're talking about loss of office and the determination of obstinacy, and the charge of formal heresy, these are all parts of canon law.  Only Church officials can interpret, judge and execute canon law.  Only Church officials can determine (using St Paul's scriptural 2-rebuke process) obstinacy.  If there is no obstinacy, there is no "ipso facto" loss of office.
    .
    I'll say it a 1,000 times.  "Manifest" does not mean what dictionary.com says it means.  It does not mean "obvious" or "public".  It has a specific canon law meaning, which implies obstinacy.  And when the Church DETERMINES/DECLARES that the person is an obstinate/manifest heretic, THEN all of the canon law "ipso facto" penalties automatically kick-in.  But not before. 
    .
    We are not protestants.  Private interpretation, public opinion, autonomous application of canon law does not work in our religion.  The Church is a monarchy.  Canon Law is only used by canon lawyers.  There is a legal process.  There are rules to follow.  Holy Mother Church tells us what is and what is not; determining manifest heresy is not by popular vote.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #158 on: November 04, 2019, 09:46:03 AM »
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  • "Pax Vobis" is out to prove that he really is a congenital liar: 《You, like most other sedes, ignore the heretical aspect of obstinacy, when applying canon law to manifest heresy.  

    You lie by referring to me as a "sede"; and you lie by saying I "ignore the heretical aspect of obstinacy." You must either senile, or else you deliberately ignore my earlier exposition on pertinacity. The latter is your chronic modus operandi. You seem to think all the readers suffer from memory failure; and that they won't remember I already covered this topic. You are a fraud and a liar, "Pax Vobis", or "Pax Christi" ; or whoever you are --  the coward hiding behind a fake name.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #159 on: November 04, 2019, 09:49:21 AM »
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  • And of course, "Pax Vobis" , you deliberately lie by referring to me as a "sede". Until Benedict XVI unequivocally renounces his munus or dies, he remains in office as pope.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #160 on: November 04, 2019, 10:06:18 AM »
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  • I said you are arguing like a sede.  I don't care if you are one or not. 
    .
    Who determines obstinacy when it comes to heresy?  This is the ultimate question.  I say the Church does (i.e. Church officials, through a legal process).  Do you agree or disagree? 
    .
    This is the first step that must happen before ANY discussion of loss of office, or canon law penalties can take place.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #161 on: November 04, 2019, 10:27:39 AM »
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  • Let's ask an easier question:  Is +Francis a manifest heretic?
    .
    Answer:  No, because the Church has not told us he is.  The Church has not determined his obstinacy (though a few Cardinals have started the rebuke process with the "dubia" letter).  No catholic is authorized to judge obstinacy except those authorized by the Church to apply canon law.
    .
    Is +Francis a heretic, generally speaking? 
    .
    Answer:  Obviously, yes.  But he is presumed a material heretic only, under the law, until the Church tells us otherwise. 
    .
    If +Francis is a material heretic and not (yet) a manifest one, does this change the nature of his errors?
    .
    Answer:  No.  Error is error.  The difference between being a material and a manifest/formal heretic is in the will.  A material heretic is one who is in error, but because of poor understanding of doctrine or confusion.  A manifest/formal heretic is one who clings to his error, even when shown that he is contrary to doctrine. 
    .
    If +Francis' errors are wrong in both cases, why does canon law make a distinction between material and manifest/formal heresy?
    .
    Answer:  Because, as St Thomas teaches, that sin is in the will.  A material heretic, while objectively wrong, may not be subjectively guilty for his crime.  While a manifest/formal heretic is proven to be wrong, and obstinately attached to his error.  The Church's job is to determine this difference, through St Paul's 2-rebuke process.  Once this is determined, then the appropriate canon law penalties are applied.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #162 on: November 04, 2019, 11:11:58 AM »
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  • There is no crime (in temporal terms) until the Church rules. 

    This is absolutely false.  Even S&S make an "exception" for apostasy.  But if this statement of yours is correct, then there can be no such exception.  "I, Bergoglio, have become a Buddhist."  No crime because no declaration?  Nonsense.  "I, Bergoglio, know that the Church teaches transubstantiation, but I don't believe it and think it's just ordinary bread."  No crime?  Hogwash.

    What's at issue is not whether there has been a crime, since objectively speaking, either there has or there hasn't.  What's at issue is when it becomes "manifest".  In some cases, such as the ones I cited, the truth if self-evident.  It's "manifest" by its very nature.  No declaration is necessary.  So declaration is not of the essence.

    It's only in cases where the truth is not self-evident, where the Church is in doubt, that there must be a declaration.  But, even then, what if there were a General Council, and 51% of the Church Fathers there decided to vote in favor of issuing a declaration that a certain Pope is a heretic.  But what if those 49% refuse to give in to this "democratic" procedure?  In that case, despite a declaration, there's no Universal Consensus, so the declaration doesn't mean squat.  What's at issue isn't any kind of "declaration" but a Universal Consensus of the Church.

    You can have Universal Consensus without a declaration.  You can have a declaration without Universal Consensus.  In the former case, you have manifest heresy.  In the latter, you do not.  If you do not have Universal Consensus, then the matter remains in a doubtful condition.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #163 on: November 04, 2019, 11:47:47 AM »
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  • No, you liar, you didn't say I argue like a sede; but you said like "other sedes"; which literally means that according to your statement, I am also a sede. While it's true you personally don't give a rat's posterior as to whether I am a sede or not; you do very much strive to defame me by tarring me with the sede brush. 
         You silly fool, you don't seem to grasp that if something is manifest, it is obvious on its face by itself beyond reasonable doubt, without the need for anyone in authority to declare to us that what we already plainly know to be certain is indeed really certain. If pertinacity is manifestly obvious beyond all reasonable doubt, it is CERTAIN, and is known to be certain. You are saying that no one has the right to assert what is already manifestly certain unless the Church tells us it is certain. This is pure idiocy, and it is not Church teaching. Your proposition,  "No catholic is authorized to judge obstinacy except those authorized by the Church to apply canon law"; is a gratuitous absurdity, as I have already demonstrated earlier. If the obstinacy is manifestly obvious, we have the right to assert that it is so. Your proposition, "But he is presumed a material heretic only, under the law, until the Church tells us otherwise," is applicable only in penal law. If the heresy is asserted in such a flagrant manner that the dolus of formal heresy cannot be hidden by any subterfuge, nor can it be excused by any recourse to law, then the form of heresy is manifest to us by itself, without the Church having to declare it to us before we are permitted to affirm the obvious fact. Next proposition, "St Thomas teaches, that sin is in the will. " Liar! St. Thomas does not say that. St. Thomas says the FORM of the sin is in the will. Sin is a composite of FORM and MATTER. The form is internal, but the sin is internal if the ACT is internal, and the sin is EXTERNAL if the act is perceptible to the senses. If not only the matter, but the FORM is plainly manifested as I described above, then anyone who has the mental capacity to judge may assert that the FACT of formal heresy is plainly obvious.
    No private individual may presume to usurp the judicial function of the Church by attempting to pronounce a penal sentence on a manifest heretic; or by presuming some juriducal effect to one's private judgment; but one is permitted to judge and assert that which is plainly manifest and certain beyond any reasonable doubt; provided that one does not presume any juridical force in one's private judgment.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #164 on: November 04, 2019, 12:11:28 PM »
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  • Quote
    No crime because no declaration?  Nonsense.  "I, Bergoglio, know that the Church teaches transubstantiation, but I don't believe it and think it's just ordinary bread."  No crime?  Hogwash.
    I said "in temporal terms", meaning "material office".  We've been talking about heresy this whole time, so throwing in apostasy is apples-oranges.  The material office is part of Church govt, therefore it's governed by canon law, therefore until canon law is decided/declared, the material office is intact.  This is exactly what the new code says.
    .
    Quote
    What's at issue is when it becomes "manifest".  In some cases, such as the ones I cited, the truth if self-evident.  It's "manifest" by its very nature.  No declaration is necessary.  So declaration is not of the essence.
    A self evident truth must still be legally proceeded.  You are using "manifest" in the normal, English translation.  This is not how St Bellarimine used it, which was analogous to formal heresy. 
    .
    Quote
    It's only in cases where the truth is not self-evident, where the Church is in doubt, that there must be a declaration.  But, even then, what if there were a General Council, and 51% of the Church Fathers there decided to vote in favor of issuing a declaration that a certain Pope is a heretic.  But what if those 49% refuse to give in to this "democratic" procedure?  In that case, despite a declaration, there's no Universal Consensus, so the declaration doesn't mean squat. 
    The pope is elected by majority, not unanimously.  Therefore, he can (in theory) be declared a manifest/formal heretic by majority.  Just because we can point to practical problems of HOW this would work, does not mean that the WHY or WHAT of the law is wrong. 
    .
    Universal consensus does not mean "everyone agrees". 
    .
    Quote
    What's at issue isn't any kind of "declaration" but a Universal Consensus of the Church.
    The universal consensus only applies to rome officials.  No one else has any say in the matter; the Church is not a democracy.  IT IS A MONARCHY.  The Cardinals (the princes of the Church) elect the pope, so the Cardinals declare when he's no longer pope (as the theory goes...it's never happened before, so it's just a theory).
    .
    Quote
    You can have Universal Consensus without a declaration. 
    But this would only be temporary.  The declaration would eventually happen, either explicitly or implicitly, as a matter of law.  If it happens explicitly, then Cardinals would declare the pope a manifest heretic and he would lose his office immediately (or as part of this manifest heresy declaration, they would say he's lost his office).  Or...it would happen implicitly, when the Cardinals/officials declare that they are preparing to elect a new pope.