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Author Topic: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available  (Read 32349 times)

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Offline Alexandria

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Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
« Reply #90 on: October 02, 2019, 01:32:57 PM »
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  • 1.) How would anyone of us know exactly what you have read and comprehended since the 1960's?
    2.) You can find a brief amount of the material here: https://www.sjmfatimacrusade.com/articles
    How did you get your #1 from what I wrote?  That's not what I meant at all.   


    Offline MiserereMeiDeus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #91 on: October 02, 2019, 03:05:39 PM »
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  • MiserereMeiDeus said:

    Both Kaspar and MiserereMeiDeus are saying the same thing.  Benedict and Francis get the same result (your purse is gone), but just 2 different methods.  Benedict is like the cunning, often charming con-man who walks away with your purse while you're not looking.  Francis is just a thug who sticks a knife in your face and grabs the purse from you violently and runs off.  Sure, Benedict is a "nicer guy" but who cares?  Your purse is still gone.
    No, there's a subtle difference. In the case of the purse snatcher, the victim loses her purse. In the case of the cutthroat, she gets her purse stolen and her throat slashed and her dead body left bleeding in an alley. So similar, but not identical.
    Anyway, it's just an analogy. The real difference between Benedict and Bergoglio is the difference between material heresy and formal heresy.
    "Let us thank God for having called us to His holy faith. It is a great gift, and the number of those who thank God for it is small."
    -- St. Alphonsus de Liguori


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #92 on: October 02, 2019, 03:12:01 PM »
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  • The real difference between Benedict and Bergoglio is the difference between material heresy and formal heresy.

    eh, maybe.  I don't know how you can establish that Benedict's was only material but Bergoglio's is formal.  Benedict was extremely well educated, whereas Bergoglio was a post Vatican II flower child.  So if anything, it MIGHT be the other way around.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #93 on: October 02, 2019, 03:30:15 PM »
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  • Benedict vs Francis is like the difference between socialism and communism.  You lose your freedom (ie Faith) either way.  In the former, the authorities convince you that giving up your freedom is good.  In the latter, the authorities take freedom/Faith by force.  Generally, no difference.  Socialism always devolves into communism so the difference is temporary. 

    Offline MiserereMeiDeus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #94 on: October 02, 2019, 04:34:25 PM »
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  • Ooops. Accidental double post. Sorry about that.
    "Let us thank God for having called us to His holy faith. It is a great gift, and the number of those who thank God for it is small."
    -- St. Alphonsus de Liguori


    Offline MiserereMeiDeus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #95 on: October 02, 2019, 04:35:07 PM »
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  • Bergoglio a flower child of the '60s? He was born in 1936! His formation as a Catholic and his entire experience of the Church for the first almost 30 years of his life was pre-VII.

    As for Benedict, my own take, which I admit may be incorrect, is that as a result of Benedict's education and immersion in the academic milieu, he came into contact with and became infected by the ideas of German philosophy. How to resolve any apparent contradictions between those philosophies and the Faith? The answer is easy enough for anyone infected with German philosophy -- Hegel's magic formula of thesis, antithesis, synthesis. Consequently, he would have believed himself to be on solid ground even though he wasn't. The heresy in that case would not indicate a deliberate, conscious rejection of Catholic teaching. He might believe that he had found a clarification or better understanding of what the Church had taught all along. At bottom, there may well be good will and a desire to believe what the Church teaches, and he very possibly believed that he in fact did believe what the Church always taught.

    There is no way for me or you to know for certain; the matter is entirely subjective. It also demonstrates why material heresy in and of itself is not be sufficient to de-legitamize a pope or apparent pope. It needs to be formal, pertinacious, manifest heresy. A case can be made that "Just Call Me Jorge" meets those criteria.

    Anyway, that's how I see it. And, I can't help it -- I feel genuine affection for Benedict, despite his lapses into error. I don't see any malice in him, unlike Bergoglio. And he gave us Summorum Pontificuм -- flawed, but so much better than what we had.

    The difference, then, in a nutshell, is that one of them was a legitimate pope who may have been well-intended, despite having a history of dropping the ball in the red zone repeatedly. The other isn't even Catholic, and gives every indication of making it his life's work to do the best he can to destroy the Holy Catholic Church. This is not to say that Benedict didn't do any damage -- it's clear that he did a lot of damage. But I refuse to agree that Benedict and Bergoglio are essentially the same. The notion is absurd.

    Saying Benedict is the same as Begoglio is not terribly different from saying, "Trump is the same as Hitler."
    "Let us thank God for having called us to His holy faith. It is a great gift, and the number of those who thank God for it is small."
    -- St. Alphonsus de Liguori

    Offline MiserereMeiDeus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #96 on: October 02, 2019, 04:52:19 PM »
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  • ii)




    The Great Sacrilege is available to read online for free at http://www.dailycatholic.org/indextgs.htm
    "Let us thank God for having called us to His holy faith. It is a great gift, and the number of those who thank God for it is small."
    -- St. Alphonsus de Liguori

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #97 on: October 02, 2019, 05:42:40 PM »
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  • Quote
    The difference, then, in a nutshell, is that one of them was a legitimate pope who may have been well-intended, despite having a history of dropping the ball in the red zone repeatedly.

    "May have been well intentioned"? ?  The facts say otherwise...

    +Benedict was one of the biggest supporters of V2.  He was there while it happened.
    +Benedict proclaimed gladly that V2 was anti-Syllabus of errors.  He said it was anti-Trent.
    +Benedict was the head of the "Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith" while +JPII promoted his heretical-ecuмenical religious ceremonies.
    +Benedict was the head of the "Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith" while +JPII promoted the immoral "Theology of the Body"
    +Benedict was the head of the "Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith" while +JPII did all the other anti-catholic things he did.
    +Benedict was the head of the "Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith" while +JPII started the immoral and anti-catholic "World Youth Days".
    +Benedict promoted "World Youth Days" as pope.
    +Benedict managed the 2000 "3rd secret of Fatima" lie to the entire catholic world.
    +Benedict has been trying to get the sspx to join new-rome since the 80s.
    +Benedict's theology books about Christ's life are blatantly anti-Tradition and he implies that Scripture is allegorical in many areas.
    +Benedict promoted communion in the hand whenever he took part in papal masses at large venues.
    +Benedict's "motu proprio" supported the novus ordo and disallowed any critique of it or V2 in his letter to fellow bishops, explaining the motu.
    .
    Shall I go on?  (I don't have time).  +Benedict did not substantially change in ANY area from his pre-papal days to his papacy.  He was arguably more "open" to tradition during his papacy, but we see that this was only to get the sspx to join.  Being open to truth, yet still supporting error/heresy doth not a good (or well intentioned) pope make.




    Offline MiserereMeiDeus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #98 on: October 02, 2019, 06:21:10 PM »
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  • "May have been well intentioned"? ?  The facts say otherwise...

    +Benedict was one of the biggest supporters of V2.  He was there while it happened.
    +Benedict proclaimed gladly that V2 was anti-Syllabus of errors.  He said it was anti-Trent.
    +Benedict was the head of the "Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith" while +JPII promoted his heretical-ecuмenical religious ceremonies.
    +Benedict was the head of the "Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith" while +JPII promoted the immoral "Theology of the Body"
    +Benedict was the head of the "Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith" while +JPII did all the other anti-catholic things he did.
    +Benedict was the head of the "Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith" while +JPII started the immoral and anti-catholic "World Youth Days".
    +Benedict promoted "World Youth Days" as pope.
    +Benedict managed the 2000 "3rd secret of Fatima" lie to the entire catholic world.
    +Benedict has been trying to get the sspx to join new-rome since the 80s.
    +Benedict's theology books about Christ's life are blatantly anti-Tradition and he implies that Scripture is allegorical in many areas.
    +Benedict promoted communion in the hand whenever he took part in papal masses at large venues.
    +Benedict's "motu proprio" supported the novus ordo and disallowed any critique of it or V2 in his letter to fellow bishops, explaining the motu.
    .
    Shall I go on?  (I don't have time).  +Benedict did not substantially change in ANY area from his pre-papal days to his papacy.  He was arguably more "open" to tradition during his papacy, but we see that this was only to get the sspx to join.  Being open to truth, yet still supporting error/heresy doth not a good (or well intentioned) pope make.
    You are addressing specific actions (and not all the claims you made are correct -- for example, he did not encourage Communion in the hand). You and I are not God and we're not even Padre Pio: we can't read souls. Even an objective sin doesn't automatically equate to actual sin, and this is where a person's intent and understanding -- which only God and that person can know with absolute certainty -- become critical factors. I think you're out of line to declare that Benedict's actions prove a lack of good will. I don't deny that Benedict was in many, many ways a bad pope. "Just Call Me Jorge," on the other hand, is a different story, and isn't and never was the pope. And although I can't even say with absolute certainty that "Just Call Me Jorge"'s actions are motivated by malice, I can say that they look, talk, walk and quack like ducks.
    "Let us thank God for having called us to His holy faith. It is a great gift, and the number of those who thank God for it is small."
    -- St. Alphonsus de Liguori

    Offline MiserereMeiDeus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #99 on: October 02, 2019, 06:25:30 PM »
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  • Sorry, another duplicate post. I keep hitting "Quote" when I mean to hit "Modify." Sigh.
    "Let us thank God for having called us to His holy faith. It is a great gift, and the number of those who thank God for it is small."
    -- St. Alphonsus de Liguori

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #100 on: October 02, 2019, 06:35:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    You are addressing specific actions (and not all the claims you made are correct -- for example, he did not encourage Communion in the hand).

    He did encourage it, by direct and repeated actions.  (...There are 9 ways to be an accessory to a sin.).  There are NUMEROUS pictures out there which show him giving communion-in-the-hand when he was pope.  If he were against such a practice, he would not be involved.
    .

    Quote
    Even an objective sin doesn't automatically equate to actual sin, and this is where a person's intent and understanding -- which only God and that person can know with absolute certainty -- become critical factors.
    Wrong.  An objective sin is a sin, and an offense against God.  Only the culpability/guilt is changed, depending on the person's intent/knowledge.
    .

    Quote
     I don't deny that Benedict was in many, many ways a bad pope.
    Ok, then we agree.
    .

    Quote
    I think you're out of line to declare that Benedict's actions prove a lack of good will. 
    So you agree he was a bad pope, but you disagree that he had bad will.  ??  So he was a bad pope "accidentally"?  Come on.
    .
    Just because he's "not as bad" as +Francis, doesn't mean he's not bad.  A person who commits 1st degree murder is just as guilty as one who commits it in the 2nd degree.  +Francis is just more open about his intentions.  The crime is still the same.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #101 on: October 03, 2019, 04:50:17 AM »
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  • Robert Siscoe's "identical twin", Pax Vobis, said, 《  I do agree with their overall point (which lines up with John of St Thomas) that a Church declaration of some type is needed before there can be unity in the Church over who is/isn't a heretic, especially when we're dealing with the pope. 》

         That is not their overall view. The Salza/Siscoe overall view is the hetetical position that even a manifest heretic remains in office until he is judged guilty of the delict of heresy by "the Church"; and by "the Church" they explain that they favour the John of St. Thomas opinion that an imperfect council must judge the pope guilty of the crime, and issue a  vitandus declaration against the pope; although they also say "the Church" must at least "establish the crime" before a hetetic pope can fall from office. 
         The position is heretical because in virtue of the supreme and universal jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, the pope is the supreme judge in matters of faith & morals, who possesses the jurisdiction to pronounce the final judgment in all cases of heresy. Furthermore, no juridical judgment of any kind can ever be made against a reigning pope. Such a judgment would destroy the unity of the Church by undermining the governance of the Church, by elevating the non infallible judgment on heresy of an imperfect council over the supreme jurisdiction of the pope; and would destroy the Church's infallibility by depriving the pope of his jurusdiction to infallibly decide a question of heresy, and placing the supreme authority to decide a question of heresy in the power of a non-infallible imperfect council. 
         Finally, I cannot accept the sedevacantist position of "Pax Vobis" who thinks I lose credibility for upholding the valid claim on the Petrine munus of Benedict XVI. Who is Pax Vobis' pope, if even Benedict is too much of a heretic to be a valid pope? 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #102 on: October 03, 2019, 08:16:15 AM »
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  • Quote
    That is not their overall view. The Salza/Siscoe overall view is the hetetical position that even a manifest heretic remains in office until he is judged guilty of the delict of heresy by "the Church"; and by "the Church" they explain that they favour the John of St. Thomas opinion that an imperfect council must judge the pope guilty of the crime, and issue a  vitandus declaration against the pope; although they also say "the Church" must at least "establish the crime" before a hetetic pope can fall from office. 
    Was John of St Thomas ever accused of heresy for his opinions?  If not, then maybe this issue is more complex that you make it to be?

    Quote
         The position is heretical because in virtue of the supreme and universal jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, the pope is the supreme judge in matters of faith & morals, who possesses the jurisdiction to pronounce the final judgment in all cases of heresy.
    Yet you judge +Francis guilty of heresy with no problem?

    Quote
    Furthermore, no juridical judgment of any kind can ever be made against a reigning pope. Such a judgment would destroy the unity of the Church by undermining the governance of the Church, by elevating the non infallible judgment on heresy of an imperfect council over the supreme jurisdiction of the pope; and would destroy the Church's infallibility by depriving the pope of his jurusdiction to infallibly decide a question of heresy, and placing the supreme authority to decide a question of heresy in the power of a non-infallible imperfect council. 
    St Bellarmine mentions that the Cardinals or a council can declare a pope a heretic, if he rejects their rebuke attempts.

    Quote
         Finally, I cannot accept the sedevacantist position of "Pax Vobis" who thinks I lose credibility for upholding the valid claim on the Petrine munus of Benedict XVI. Who is Pax Vobis' pope, if even Benedict is too much of a heretic to be a valid pope? 
    If you can claim that +Francis isn't pope due to heresy, then the same situation is applicable to +Benedict, who was just as heretical.  The only difference between the 2 was style.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #103 on: October 03, 2019, 08:59:32 AM »
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  • Did anyone accuse St. Thomas of heresy for his doctrine on the Conception of the B.V.M.? After Ineffabilus Deus, St. Thomas' opinion became heretical. Likewise, all opinions which hold that a pope while in office can be judged for heresy by a council are heretical after Vatican I. That's why the Fourth Opinion refuted by Bellarmine in De Romano Pont. lib. ii cap. xxx was universally abandoned after Vat. I.The opinion of John of St. Thomas directly opposes the definition of the Primacy.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #104 on: October 03, 2019, 09:08:35 AM »
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  • The 4/5 Cardinals who sent +Francis the dubia letter said publically that they are following the rebuke process laid out by St Paul and other theologians, to determine if +Francis' heresy about the Family Synod is pernicious.  Don't know if we'll ever see this process finish, but they were very clear that they have the right/duty to proclaim him a heretic if he is proven obstinate.
    .
    So maybe a "council" is not allowed to declare a pope a heretic, but the Cardinals can?  Very similar, in my opinion.