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Author Topic: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available  (Read 32426 times)

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Offline Don Paolo

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Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
« Reply #135 on: November 02, 2019, 11:57:01 AM »
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  • Van Noort's work was actually published in 1932 (De Ecclesia Christi, Hilversum in Hollandia, 1932). He was, therefore, referring to authors who wrote before 1932. The other authors cited (Sebastian Smith 1881, and Tanquerey 1897), were 19th Century authors. In 1896 Sydney Smith attested to the fact that the common opinion of his day held that the loss of office would take place ipso facto. Edward Peters J.C.D. mentions that this is the unanimous opinion since Wernz (1935). Fr. Ghirlanda's opinion is contrary to the definition of the primacy. The cardinals have absolutely no jurisdiction to pronounce a judgment of heresy (not even a merely declaratory sentence) on a pope, who is the supreme judge of all questions of faith and morals; and who possesses the universal primacy of jurisdiction over every individual on earth. They can only declare a pope to have already fallen from office ipso jure, and thus, make their declaration against the man who before was pope, but had already fallen from office by himself, as Gregory XVI explains. Thaey cannot suspend the pope's primacy of jurisdiction and pronounce a declaratory sentence on him.
        The opinion that an ecuмenucal council could judge a pope for heresy is a sententia hæretica. The pope is defined to be the "supreme judge" (Pastor Æternus) who possesses absolute authority over a council (Fifth Lateran Council). Based on these infallible teachings, the Code of Canon Law explicitly states that the pope possesses full power over a council: Only the pope can validly convoke a council, and he has the right to freely preside over a council, suspend or close a council at will. A council's decrees are invalid without his ratification, and a council loses all authority if a pope dies or resigns. The doctrine that an exception exists in the case of heresy directly opposes the dogma of the primacy which defines that the pope is the supreme judge in all cases, as well as the above mentioned definition of the Fifth Lateran Council.
         

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #136 on: November 02, 2019, 12:19:54 PM »
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  • If the chair is actually vacant, but physically occupied by a heretic, then the cardinals have the jurisdiction to declare that the former pope vacated the chair by his defection into heresy. If the chair is occupied by a validly reigning pope, the pope possesses full jurisdiction over the cardinals, who have no power to issue and declaration against the reigning pontiff.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #137 on: November 02, 2019, 12:47:15 PM »
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  • There is no consensus among theologians on how to deal with a heretical pope. We can quote our favorite theologians on the subject all we want, but it won't amount to anything. There is no specific Church teaching on how to deal with a heretical Pope. Of course the sedes will say that Francis isn't the Pope. In which case, IMO, there's no use in debating a subject in which there's no Pope to discuss (no Pope, according to sedes). 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #138 on: November 02, 2019, 01:10:48 PM »
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  • There is a clear and specific teaching enshrined in Canon Law regarding "whatsoever offices" (quælibet officia). The term "whatsoever" includes within its scope the papacy, because the papacy is an office. There is disagreement as to how the removal is to be executed; but the text is absolutely clear: All offices are lost ipso jure and without any declaration (sine ulla declaratione) automatically (ipso facto) by the fact alone of public defection from the Catholic faith. Defection from the faith by definition consists in an act of apostasy or formal heresy.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #139 on: November 02, 2019, 01:17:50 PM »
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  • The office of the Papacy is not the same as other offices in the Church.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #140 on: November 02, 2019, 01:32:34 PM »
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  • Nevertheless, because it is an office, the officeholder would lose the pontifical office by the fact of defection. This provision applies to all offices whatsoever (quælibet officia), and therefore equally applies to the papacy as it does to every other office whatsoever.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #141 on: November 02, 2019, 01:47:01 PM »
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  • It cannot be without any doubt that it includes the Papacy. The Papacy differs enough from the other offices that there is doubt that it includes the Papacy. It is your opinion that it includes the Papacy. The law is not specific. Therefore, a serious proclamation cannot be gathered from the law. It is the Pope who determines specifically on how canon law is to be defined. I know of no pope who has defined it according to your definition. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #142 on: November 02, 2019, 02:13:01 PM »
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  • It is not merely "my opinion" that the term "quælibet officia" includes the papacy. The literal meaning of the word "quælibet" by definition is absolutely all-inclusive. Either Meg is in error, or the infallible universal disciplinary ordinance of the Roman Pontiff is in error.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #143 on: November 02, 2019, 02:24:58 PM »
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  • You are taking it upon yourself to define canon law in a way in which it is not already defined. You are further defining it. Priests and laymen do not define canon law. And, they (you) definitely have no authority to proclaim that anyone else must go along with your definition.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #144 on: November 02, 2019, 03:37:01 PM »
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  • Canon Law doesn't apply to the Pope, period ... unless it's also a matter of divine law, but in that case, it's the divine law which applies to the pope and not the canonical expression thereof.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #145 on: November 02, 2019, 05:18:21 PM »
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  • Now you prove you are a complete ignoramus about doctrine and canon law. How many ecclesiastical degrees do you have, Meg? How many theological works have you written and published? Would you be so bold to lecture a neurosurgeon on brain surgery? I earned three ecclesiastical degrees; two of them pontifical degrees from the Angelicuм in Rome. I have four published titles under my name. I am not defining canon law, but I have based all of my exposition on the question of loss of office on the most authoritative authors whom I have quoted in my 676 page book on this and related points. You are a complete ignoramus in theological and canonical matters, yet would lecture a Roman educated priest and author on doctrine and canon law!


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #146 on: November 03, 2019, 06:48:51 PM »
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  • Destroys my entire argument? What NONSENSE. The canons are not identical, and I never said they were, as you so mendaciously claim. Walters. You don't even understand what you are reading. Both cann. 188.4° and 194 prescribe an IPSO JURE loss of office for public defection from the faith. By its very nature, an ipso jure effect takes place by operation of the law itself, and per se, does not depend on any declaration. Therefore, the commentary of Navarra which I quoted earlier states explicitly, "In the second and third cases, the act of the ecclesiastical authority is declarative, and is necessary, not to provoke the vacating of the right to the office, but so that the removal can be legally demanded ... and consequently the conferral of the office to a new officeholder can be carried out (C. 154)." The provisions forTacit Renunciation and Removal are not identical in every respect, but both provisions are founded on the same doctrine, to wit, that a public act of defection from the faith by heresy or apostasy suapte natura separates the defector from membership in the Church, and thereby directly causes the ipso facto loss of office, as I amply explained earlier, with supporting quotations from St.Thomas, St.Robert Bellarmine, Ballerini, Gregory XVI, and Session 37 of the Council of Constance. Ballerini explains theologically the reason why it is that such an act of pertinacious heresy is in the nature of an ABDICATION. Pope Gregory XVI cites the verbatim passage of Ballerini, who quoted the ruling of Constance, and comments that the defector falls from the pontificate "by himself". Both Session 37 of Constance and Canon 194 explain this kind of loss of office as taking place IPSO JURE. Canon 194 prescribes a merely declaratory sentence in order to ENFORCE the loss of office, which the canon prescribes IPSO JURE. Therefore, the declaration is indeed absolutely necessary, but only to ENFORCE the loss of office that has taken place BY THE ACTION OF THE LAW ITSELF, i.e., ipso jure.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #147 on: November 03, 2019, 07:14:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    Therefore, the declaration is indeed absolutely necessary, but only to ENFORCE the loss of office that has taken place BY THE ACTION OF THE LAW ITSELF, i.e., ipso jure.
    The point is, without the declaration, there is no loss of office.  The declaration is the enforcement; without enforcement, there is no punishment for the crime.  
    .
    You can argue that a person is guilty of heresy by way of “public opinion” but that has no force of law.  Without a declaration, just like without a judge/jury, a murderer doesnt go to jail...even if everyone knows he did it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #148 on: November 03, 2019, 07:45:12 PM »
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  • The point is, without the declaration, there is no loss of office.  The declaration is the enforcement; without enforcement, there is no punishment for the crime.  
    .
    You can argue that a person is guilty of heresy by way of “public opinion” but that has no force of law.  Without a declaration, just like without a judge/jury, a murderer doesnt go to jail...even if everyone knows he did it.

    No, I disagree.  This dispute is based on not making the appropriate distinction.  Office itself (i.e. the right to hold it) is removed by the (divine) law itself ... since Popes are not subject to ecclesiastical law ... but the office needs to be stripped materially from the occupant by a declaration.  This is perfectly in line with the material-formal distinction.

    No declaration can actually EFFECT the loss of papal office ... not formally.  Papal office is lost formally by virtue of the defection from faith, but lost materially by force of the declaration.  Once again, +Guerard des Lauriers' distinction has it all make sense.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #149 on: November 03, 2019, 07:47:44 PM »
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  • "In the second and third cases, the act of the ecclesiastical authority is declarative, and is necessary, not to provoke the vacating of the right to the office, but so that the removal can be legally demanded ... and consequently the conferral of the office to a new officeholder can be carried out (C. 154)."

    This articulates well the sedeprivationist position.

    This declaration does not "provoke the vacating of the right to the office" (aka does not cause formal loss off office), but demands it legally so that the "conferral of the office to a new officeholder can be carried out." (i.e. effects the material removal).