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Author Topic: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available  (Read 32349 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
« Reply #120 on: October 29, 2019, 04:19:16 PM »
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  • What's to prevent sedevacantists from declaring tomorrow that Pope Pius XII lost his office or never had it to begin with ...

    The simple fact that, unlike the V2 Papal Claimants, Pius XII had universal peaceful acceptance as the legitimate Pope.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #121 on: October 29, 2019, 04:33:15 PM »
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  • Pax Vobis: 《 So maybe a "council" is not allowed to declare a pope a heretic, but the Cardinals can?  Very similar, in my opinion.

    Not at all similar. No council may judge a reigning Pontiff. The Cardinals may declare that the Chair is vacant. As Pope Gregory XVI explained in the above quoted passage, such a judgment would not be made against the man who is actually the pope, but against the man who was before adorned with papal dignity.
        I have already explained all of this above. Like a parrot, Pax Vobis, you are mindlesdly repeating the same vapid and vacuous objections after they have already been answered. STOP TROLLING!

    I think it all depends on what the role of said "Imperfect Council" would be.  As I've said before on this thread, I completely agree with you that the verdict reached by such a Council simply cannot have any EFFECT against the Pope.  This convening of an Imperfect Council can only serve the purposes of the Church effectively "making up her mind".  Let's say there's a scenario in which the Church was divided 50-50 about whether the Pope was a heretic.  Such a Council could be convened in order for the Church to resolve her thinking on the issue.

    Let's say that a Pope begins making heretical statements on June 1 of the year 2030.
    For a while there's some disagreement in the Church about whether he's a heretic.
    On July 1, said Pope defines a dogma.
    By August 1 a consensus has been reached that he's a heretic.

    So the crux of the matter is ... did he cease to be Pope on June 1 and therefore the dogma he defined was null and void or did he cease to be Pope on August 1 and the dogma is to be held as divinely revealed by all Catholics?

    S&S would have to say that the dogma is legitimate, since the Pope didn't cease to be Pope until August 1.

    Could the Church declare, "this man has not been pope since June 1 and the dogma he declared was null and void."?  According to S&S, the Church cannot do that but must accept him as Pope til the day he was declared otherwise.  I find that conclusion to be absurd.

    Did his heresy become "manifest" on June 1 or did it only become "manifest" on August 1?


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #122 on: October 29, 2019, 04:44:48 PM »
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  • "tax attorney" Lol. If you mean me, the right job designation is "Quantitative Analyst" as that's what I was when I worked at BNY Mellon. You ought to answer my two questions in the other thread, Ladislaus, but I know you'll keep running from them, and that's why SVism will never solve the issue. Q1: Where is the Teaching Church? Q2: Does the Hierarchy recognize the Pope? And, if necessary, how many Bishops are willing to issue a declaration of pertinacity against the Pope? That's what you have to consider, if you still believe the Catholic Hierarchy is indefectible. But of course, you'll run from addressing or even acknowledging them.

    As for Fr. Guerard, he's one Priest. The SSPX has had like 1000 Priests over the past 50 years who rejected sede-privationism. Sede-privationism is also irrelevant, because it doesn't solve anything. It was invented out of necessity by sede-vacantists. Even if it possibly may preserve "material Pope" appointed Cardinals as properly designated, which itself is doubtful, it certainly doesn't preserve Ordinaries and diocesan Bishops as actually having authorities over their dioceses. Today's best Traditional Catholic Theologians have rejected all these 50 odd year old errors, and the passing of time itself has falsified the predictions and expectaions of the earlier sedes.

    The earlier sedes used to argue all Cardinals appointed by the Popes were not Cardinals. Fr. Guerard correctly saw that was wrong and argued against it. But it is not a solution today in 2019.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #123 on: October 30, 2019, 08:18:32 AM »
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  • In a penal process they would be presumed to have known, and would have the onus to produce the evidence that shows otherwise. A pope cannot be subject of a penal process. The canon on tacit loss of office statutes such a loss not on the basis of a legal presumption, but on the manifestly patent fact of apostasy or formal heresy. Thus, the dolus of heresy must be evident in such a manner that it cannot be concealed or explained away by any subterfuge of law.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #124 on: October 30, 2019, 08:47:18 AM »
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  • "tax attorney" Lol. If you mean me, the right job designation is "Quantitative Analyst" as that's what I was when I worked at BNY Mellon.

    No, I was talking about John Salza.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #125 on: October 30, 2019, 08:49:22 AM »
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  • In a penal process they would be presumed to have known, and would have the onus to produce the evidence that shows otherwise. A pope cannot be subject of a penal process. The canon on tacit loss of office statutes such a loss not on the basis of a legal presumption, but on the manifestly patent fact of apostasy or formal heresy. Thus, the dolus of heresy must be evident in such a manner that it cannot be concealed or explained away by any subterfuge of law.

    I agree completely, and that's the big fail of S&S.  They constantly cite Canon Law procedures as if they apply to a Pope.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #126 on: October 30, 2019, 08:57:20 AM »
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  • You ought to answer my two questions in the other thread, Ladislaus, but I know you'll keep running from them, and that's why SVism will never solve the issue. Q1: Where is the Teaching Church? Q2: Does the Hierarchy recognize the Pope? And, if necessary, how many Bishops are willing to issue a declaration of pertinacity against the Pope? That's what you have to consider, if you still believe the Catholic Hierarchy is indefectible. But of course, you'll run from addressing or even acknowledging them.

    I've answered your questions a dozen times, but you ignore the answers and keep pretending that I'm "running" from them.

    According to YOU, the teaching Church is teaching you Vatican II and telling you that the Novus Ordo Mass is perfectly fine.  But you ignore this Teaching Church, so what's the point of even having one?

    Unfortunately, the actual Teaching Church, which cannot simply be ignored by Catholics who don't feel like listening to what it actually teaches, has gone dormant, no differently than in the case of any regular vacancy of the Holy See.  And I have repeatedly tried to get through your thick skull that I believe that those bishops appointed by a material-only Pope who do not disqualify themselves from doing so, can in fact exercise jurisdiction.

    The problem with this "hierarchy" is that even in the case of blatant heresy from Bergoglio, less than a handful have enough faith left to actually call out Bergoglio for heresy such as that in Amor Laetitiae.  The rest have either lost the faith (themselves agreeing with the heresy) or are cowards or simply don't care.

    According to your false untenable principles, if we had the case of an Arian Pope supported by 75% of the bishops, then that Arian pope would continue to formally exercise office.  It's utterly absurd.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #127 on: October 30, 2019, 09:37:26 AM »
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  • As for Fr. Guerard, he's one Priest. The SSPX has had like 1000 Priests over the past 50 years who rejected sede-privationism.

    That's ridiculous.  First of all, he's one bishop, not just a priest.  Secondly, there isn't a single priest in the SSPX who could even hold a candle to Bishop Guerard when it comes to theological training and credentials.  It's a joke when random Econe-educated priests call themselves "theologians".  They would have been laughed out of Rome prior to Vatican II and sent to work with some half-naked pagans in New Guinea.  Of these 1000 SSPX priests, 900 of them could barely decline the Latin word puella, much less teach classes in Latin.  Bishop Guerard was a theology professor in Rome with years of advanced training, who helped Pope Pius XII write the dogmatic proclamation of the Assumption, was the personal confessor to Pope Pius XII, and who ghost-authored the Ottaviani Intervention.  It was Bishop Guerard who convinced Archbishop Lefebvre to stop saying the New Mass and therefore provided the impetus for the founding of the SSPX.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #128 on: October 30, 2019, 10:02:42 AM »
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  • It's a joke when random Econe-educated priests call themselves "theologians".  

    Somehow this "joke" seems pre-eminently applicable to Fr. François Laisney; who was once described by one of his confreres as "the chief of sophists".

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #129 on: October 30, 2019, 10:04:56 AM »
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  • I think it all depends on what the role of said "Imperfect Council" would be.  As I've said before on this thread, I completely agree with you that the verdict reached by such a Council simply cannot have any EFFECT against the Pope.  This convening of an Imperfect Council can only serve the purposes of the Church effectively "making up her mind".  Let's say there's a scenario in which the Church was divided 50-50 about whether the Pope was a heretic.  Such a Council could be convened in order for the Church to resolve her thinking on the issue.

    Let's say that a Pope begins making heretical statements on June 1 of the year 2030.
    For a while there's some disagreement in the Church about whether he's a heretic.
    On July 1, said Pope defines a dogma.
    By August 1 a consensus has been reached that he's a heretic.

    So the crux of the matter is ... did he cease to be Pope on June 1 and therefore the dogma he defined was null and void or did he cease to be Pope on August 1 and the dogma is to be held as divinely revealed by all Catholics?

    S&S would have to say that the dogma is legitimate, since the Pope didn't cease to be Pope until August 1.

    Could the Church declare, "this man has not been pope since June 1 and the dogma he declared was null and void."?  According to S&S, the Church cannot do that but must accept him as Pope til the day he was declared otherwise.  I find that conclusion to be absurd.

    Did his heresy become "manifest" on June 1 or did it only become "manifest" on August 1?
    I think even a formally deposed(but not yet materially, i.e he's a heretic but no council has dragged him off the throne) pope would be incapable of promulgating a false dogma because of the Church's indefectibility. I think that's likely why the Vatican 2 popes seem to be almost afraid of papal infallibility, with Pope John XXIII declaring he would never use it. They're likely "impounded" or "deprived" or whatever else, the exact distinctions are beyond my grasp, but just the fact that the Church still recognises them as pope prevents them from bringing the Church into complete defection. 

    In any case, were a pope deposed for heresy after having defined a dogma, I'd just take the next pope's word for whether or not it was a real promulgation.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #130 on: October 30, 2019, 10:07:42 AM »
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  • Dear Decem Rationis, I'm not Fr. Kramer, but this is the problem in the wrong application of the idea that the Pope loses his office without any intervention of the Church - even to merely ascertain the degree of public pertinacity present - whatsoever. If a Pope makes a mistake when speaking non-infallibly, he can and should be rebuked for it by his inferiors, but the presumption remains that he is the Pope imho, unless he has clearly and manifestly, beyond any degree of doubt whatsoever, proved obstinate and manifestly so before all. And it is the Bishops themselves, not us, who will have to judge and declare that the Pope has now proved obstinate.

    What's to prevent sedevacantists from declaring tomorrow that Pope Pius XII lost his office or never had it to begin with, if they find what they deem to be heresies in his words? There are some sedevacantists who go back all the way to Pope Pius IX, and Ibranyi at last count has gone back a 1000 years or so. This can't be the Catholic Faith.

    God bless.
    Hi, Xavier. Difficulties and practical problems do not cancel out "hard" theological facts.

    It seems to me that the teaching that a heretic loses his office ipso facto is divine law; a heretic, and a proposition that denies the faith, must be rejected. St. Paul, Galatians 1:8-9. This obligation falls upon all who receive the gospel teaching. If it were necessary for the Church to make some kind of declaration, St. Paul was speaking falsely in placing that obligation upon the faithful themselves in Galatians, and his directive makes no sense. The teaching of Pius IV in cuм Ex is consistent with this: without any declaration, the faithful "shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering)." This is not subversion of the divine institution of the Church and its hierarchical structure, as the duty of obedience to legitimate authority later "entering" remains.

    You ask about what is to prevent schism from the true authority? Well, drawing on the Biblical and Apostolic teaching, St. Paul again shows us an instance of false authority, the prophesied final false authority, and tells us once again how to defeat or resist it. He doesn't tell us to wait for a decision of some council or other, he essentially tells us again to hold to the gospel, the teaching we have received, invoking tradition:


    Quote
    2 Thessalonians 2:14

    Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Itaque fratres, state : et tenete traditiones, quas didicistis, sive per sermonem, sive per epistolam nostram.

    http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/60002.htm

    A true and legitimate authority with hold up to the standard of the tradition and what we have learned. Our only help in this, after we have done our individual due diligence, is each other (the "brethren," including hopefully legitimate pastors who object and stand firm).  This might be messy and a bit untidy, but it's the truth. It is what it is, and all our objections about the difficulties of this in application don't cancel it out and change the objective reality. This most often hits home in the arena of morality as our fallen natures are pitted up against the moral law of God. And just as practical problems of application must be confronted there, they have to be confronted here, as we are too poignantly having to experience currently.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #131 on: October 30, 2019, 02:14:35 PM »
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  • In a penal process they would be presumed to have known, and would have the onus to produce the evidence that shows otherwise. A pope cannot be subject of a penal process. The canon on tacit loss of office statutes such a loss not on the basis of a legal presumption, but on the manifestly patent fact of apostasy or formal heresy. Thus, the dolus of heresy must be evident in such a manner that it cannot be concealed or explained away by any subterfuge of law.

    Don Paolo,

    So would you say that JP2 was guilty of material heresy in promulgating the CCC with the "explicit" heresy of non-revocation of the Old Covenant but that JP2's material heresy was "culpable and vincible, but without pertinacity" (the phrase is yours in the book; I make the application to JP2)? After all, JP2 was educated at the Angelicuм under Father Garrigou Lagrange and knew about the revocation of the "Old Covenant."

    You are finding a lack of pertinacity in him because he explained it away as referring to the Abrahamic Covenant (which indeed has not been revoked)?

    What troubles me, however, is your finding that the CCC was "explicit" in its heresy. If JP2 could have reasonably understood the term "Old Covenant" to refer to the Abrahamic Covenant, why couldn't the CCC be read that way? How do you get to the CCC being "explicitly" heretical then?

    Sorry Father for piling on the questions but I am looking for understanding and I'm fortunate to have your ear. Thank you so much for your time.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #132 on: October 30, 2019, 03:02:55 PM »
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  • Explicit heresy means objective heresy; i.e., the objective matter of heresy. The CCC cannot be read that way (i.e. Old Covenant referring to the Abrahamic Covenant, etc.) because according to the objective signification of the terms, that understanding of it is a doctrinal error. It is per se objectively heretical, even if the formulators of the heretical proposition subjectively read a different and erroneous meaning into it. Pertinacity is entirely subjective. The matter of heresy is objective, i.e. a heretical proposition.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #133 on: November 02, 2019, 05:34:28 AM »
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  • RESPONSE TO MISCELLANEOUS OBJECTIONS & QUESTIONS:

    1) To the objection that Cardinal Journet's support of what Bellarmine lists as"Opinion No. 4" on the question of deposing a heretic pope proves that that opinion was not universally abandoned; I ANSWER: One lone dissident voice against the dogma of the primacy does not diminish the moral unanimity of theologians and canonists that has existed since the late 19th Century on this point.

    2) To the question asking what are the specific circuмstances limiting the applicability of the principle of universal acceptance; I ANSWER: First, if the perceived and alleged universal acceptance is of a person who is invalid matter or an incapable subject (i.e. a apostate or heretic); or if the chair was not actually vacant, but erroneously believed to be so; if the purported universal acceptance is accorded in such a manner that the acceptance is not exclusive to any and all other claimants of the munus. It must not be only a universal acceptance of ONE ONLY; but an OUTRIGHT REJECTION AT LEAST IMP.LICIT OF ANY OTHER CLAIM ON THE PETRINE MUNUS.

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: "To Deceive the Elect" by Fr. Paul Kramer now available
    « Reply #134 on: November 02, 2019, 10:01:43 AM »
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  • RESPONSE TO MISCELLANEOUS OBJECTIONS & QUESTIONS:

    1) To the objection that Cardinal Journet's support of what Bellarmine lists as"Opinion No. 4" on the question of deposing a heretic pope proves that that opinion was not universally abandoned; I ANSWER: One lone dissident voice against the dogma of the primacy does not diminish the moral unanimity of theologians and canonists that has existed since the late 19th Century on this point.

    What about what these theologians wrote?
     
    Van Noort, Christ’s Church (1957): “with regard to the pope when he is not speaking ex cathedra. All theologians admit that the pope can make a mistake in matters of faith and morals when so speaking: either by proposing a false opinion in a matter not yet defined, or by innocently differing from some doctrine already defined. Theologians disagree, however, over the question of whether the pope can become a formal heretic by stubbornly clinging to an error in a matter already defined. The more probable and respectful opinion, followed by Suarez, Bellarmine and many others, hold that just as God has not till this day ever permitted such a thing to happen, so too he will never permit a pope to become a formal and public heretic.  Still, some competent theologians do concede that the pope when not speaking ex cathedra could fall into formal heresy.  They add that should such a case of public papal heresy occur, the pope, either by the very deed itself or at least by a subsequent decision of an ecuмenical council, would by divine law forfeit his jurisdiction.” (Van Noort, Christ’s Church, 1957, No. 181)
     
    Father Ghirlanda, S.J., former rector of the Gregorian University (2013):  “The vacancy of the Roman See occurs in case of the cessation of the office on the part of the Roman Pontiff, which happens for four reasons: 1) Death, 2) Sure and perpetual insanity or complete mental infirmity; 3) Notorious apostasy, heresy, schism; 4) Resignation.  In the first case, the Apostolic See is vacant from the moment of death of the Roman Pontiff; in the second and in the third from the moment of the declaration on the part of the cardinals; in the fourth from the moment of the renunciation.  There is the case, admitted by doctrine, of notorious apostasy, heresy and schism, into which the Roman Pontiff could fall, but as a ‘private doctor,’ that does not demand the assent of the faithful … However, in such cases, because ‘the first see is judged by no one’ (Canon 1404) no one could depose the Roman Pontiff, but only a declaration of the fact would be had, which would have to be done by the Cardinals, at least of those present in Rome.” (Gianfranco Ghirlanda, Cessazione dall’ufficio di Romano Pontefice, "La Civiltà Cattolica" q. n 3905 March, 2,  2013, p. 445)
     
    Elements of Ecclesiastical Law (1881): “Question: Is a Pope who falls into heresy deprived, ipso jure, of the Pontificate? “Answer: There are two opinions: one holds that he is by virtue of divine appointment, divested ipso facto, of the Pontificate; the other, that he is, jure divino, only removable.  Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the church, i.e., by an ecuмenical council or the College of Cardinals.  The question is hypothetical rather than practical”. (Smith, Sebastian B. Elements of Ecclesiastical Law (revised third edition), New York: Benzinger Brothers, 1881)
     
    Tanquerey (1897): “During the Vatican Council the bishop of Brexit [Vincent Gasser, spokesman for the Deputation de Fide] took the occasion to addressed the theological debate about whether a Pope, as a private person, can fall into heresy, by willfully and persistently adhering to an error against the faith. All concede that he can err against the faith due to ignorance, but many believe Providence will prevent him from erring pertinaciously and becoming a true heretic.  (…)  If it did to happen that the Pope fell into pertinacious heresy, he would either be ipso facto be deprived of the Pontificate, or the body of bishops could depose him, as in the case of doubtful pope: for in this extraordinary case, the authority passes (delolvitur) to the episcopal body.” (Tanquerey, Synopsis theologiae dogmaticae Fundamentalis, 1897, No. 180, f. 3. p. 465