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Author Topic: "The Nine" - 40 Year Anniversary  (Read 5498 times)

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Re: "The Nine" - 40 Year Anniversary
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2023, 07:07:40 AM »
Totally false. The Resistance continues the same fight, the same doctrine, the same liturgy as Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX of old. There have always been priests (and lay people) with their own ideas, even in the old SSPX...
Except the liturgy of ABL/SSPX was not always the 1962 Missal as stated by the Nine:


The First General Chapter of the Society, held at Ecône in 1976, adopted the principle that the Districts and the Houses of Formation should follow the Missal, Breviary, Calendar and Rubrics which were customary at that time. This decision was never rescinded or even discussed at the Second General Chapter held last year at which your successor was selected. In the case of the United States, we have always followed the Missal, Breviary, Calendar and Rubrics of our holy patron, Pope St. Pius X, which practice was sanctioned by the First General Chapter. Of late, however, an attempt has been made to force all the priests and seminarians in the United States to accept the liturgical reforms of Pope John XXIII on the grounds of uniformity and loyalty to the Society, thereby implying that adherence to the non-reformed traditional Rites of St. Pius X constitutes disloyalty.

Offline Meg

Re: "The Nine" - 40 Year Anniversary
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2023, 07:15:32 AM »
Totally false. The Resistance continues the same fight, the same doctrine, the same liturgy as Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX of old. There have always been priests (and lay people) with their own ideas, even in the old SSPX...

I think that the Resistance in the U.S. will likely go sedevacantist at some point in the future, or there will be a split or break away sedevacantist group. IMO, this is because Americans value 'liberty' above all else. It's not just the liberals who want liberty. Often, we Americans don't even realize that liberty is what matters the most to us. Trads in the U.S. are not immune to this, since 'liberty' is ingrained in us from an early age. 


Re: "The Nine" - 40 Year Anniversary
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2023, 07:56:35 AM »
Except the liturgy of ABL/SSPX was not always the 1962 Missal as stated by the Nine:


The First General Chapter of the Society, held at Ecône in 1976, adopted the principle that the Districts and the Houses of Formation should follow the Missal, Breviary, Calendar and Rubrics which were customary at that time. This decision was never rescinded or even discussed at the Second General Chapter held last year at which your successor was selected. In the case of the United States, we have always followed the Missal, Breviary, Calendar and Rubrics of our holy patron, Pope St. Pius X, which practice was sanctioned by the First General Chapter. Of late, however, an attempt has been made to force all the priests and seminarians in the United States to accept the liturgical reforms of Pope John XXIII on the grounds of uniformity and loyalty to the Society, thereby implying that adherence to the non-reformed traditional Rites of St. Pius X constitutes disloyalty.

Lefebvre was the preeminent defender of the faith against the conciliar and post-conciliar errors, certainly, but he did not concern himself much with the liturgical rot he himself was raised upon, and which by the time of the Council was considered normal, and even traditional (eg., dialogue Masses, etc).  The preconciliar damage was much mitigated by popes who were still doctrinally orthodox, and did not draw much attention (outside the revised Holy Week rites, anyway).

But in his own seminaries, we were taught -and this was the central point of the entire Liturgy I class- that by 1920, the principles animating the liturgical reform were no longer Catholic.

Why then embrace their results?

It was certainly not because of any intrinsic merit of the reformed rites and/or transitional missals, but simply a show of good will to Rome; a sign to them that though their pervasive novelties and errors necessitated a proportionately widespread resistance, nevertheless, he wanted to obey where he could, even to the point of accepting the transitional missal.

But today, we have the same conciliar authority actually permitting the traditional Holy Week, and consequently, retaining the 1962 missal has lost its purpose:

It can no longer be construed as disrespectful to authority to revert to a superior missal which that very authority now permits.

Does anyone pretend that, had Rome permitted the 1950 Holy Week/missal in 1970, that Lefebvre would still have chosen the 1962?  Of course not.

Then why keep it, except as an empty memorial, to the detriment of the liturgy, and the quality of worship rendered to God?

Those who think momentum growing in the Resistance for the traditional missal indicates a slide toward sedevacantism have not understood their Founder.


Re: "The Nine" - 40 Year Anniversary
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2023, 08:24:38 AM »
Lefebvre was the preeminent defender of the faith against the conciliar and post-conciliar errors, certainly, but he did not concern himself much with the liturgical rot he himself was raised upon, and which by the time of the Council was considered normal, and even traditional (eg., dialogue Masses, etc).  The preconciliar damage was much mitigated by popes who were still doctrinally orthodox, and did not draw much attention (outside the revised Holy Week rites, anyway).

But in his own seminaries, we were taught -and this was the central point of the entire Liturgy I class- that by 1920, the principles animating the liturgical reform were no longer Catholic.

Why then embrace their results?

It was certainly not because of any intrinsic merit of the reformed rites and/or transitional missals, but simply a show of good will to Rome; a sign to them that though their pervasive novelties and errors necessitated a proportionately widespread resistance, nevertheless, he wanted to obey where he could, even to the point of accepting the transitional missal.

But today, we have the same conciliar authority actually permitting the traditional Holy Week, and consequently, retaining the 1962 missal has lost its purpose:

It can no longer be construed as disrespectful to authority to revert to a superior missal which that very authority now permits.

Does anyone pretend that, had Rome permitted the 1950 Holy Week/missal in 1970, that Lefebvre would still have chosen the 1962?  Of course not.

Then why keep it, except as an empty memorial, to the detriment of the liturgy, and the quality of worship rendered to God?

Those who think momentum growing in the Resistance for the traditional missal indicates a slide toward sedevacantism have not understood their Founder.

PS: Did not someone recently post on CI that, when in 2018 Rome gave permission to the Ecclesia Dei groups to use the traditional missal, Menzingen circulated instructions throughout the SSPX not to request it?

if that is true, does it make sense in light of the above?

Re: "The Nine" - 40 Year Anniversary
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2023, 08:27:14 AM »
There is nothing heretical in the 1965 missal, yet Lefebvre abandoned it at Econe in the early 1970’s in favor of the 1962. 

Don’t get me wrong: The 1962 is better than the 1965, but is the 1965 really dangerous to the faith?

What are the criteria by which this judgment is made?

If the arguments are things like: Lengthy and venerable prayers were trimmed (like the Judica Me), vernacular was introduced (just like at SSPX Masses in France today), versus populum was introduced, etc., these developments are all also contained in the 1956 Pian Holy Week rites.  So why wouldn’t these things be dangerous to the faith in that context as well?


In my view, if our goal is to 'restore all things in Christ', and to preserve and propagate Catholic doctrine, discipline and worship, we should use that liturgy which is pure and pristine, and untouched from any reforms concocted by Bugnini and the like.

I do not by this call the Pius XII reforms intrinsically evil or anything of the sort, but I know that Pope Pius XII, if he knew what became of his reforms, would tell us to use the pre-55 rubrics. The pre-55 Holy Week in particular makes clear the night-and-day distinction with the Novus Ordo.