Author Topic: "Subsistit" Ecclesiology and the Trad Seminaries (Read 4906 times)

MyrnaM · « **Reply #35 on:** July 09, 2016, 06:40:26 PM »

Quote from: Arvinger

Quote from: clare
Just wondering.

Presumably even Feeneyites have non-Catholic friends and relatives. Now, when, for example, a non-Catholic grandparent, aunt, uncle, parent, or sibling dies, do you pray for him? Or do you assume that he's damned? Do you hold out any hope that something transpired between him and God at the end?

Again, just as Myrna you seem to think that Feeneyites are somehow judging individual souls, which is not the case. Feeneyites merely argue about objective requirements for salvation. Whether a pecific soul made it to heaven or not - we don't know.

Lets say you have an exam to enter the university - to make it you need, say, 60%. A profesor says before the exam "those of you who will reach 60% will make it into our university". Does he judge any specific individual chances? Of course, not. The same way Feeneyites say "it is necessary to receiver baptism and have explicit faith in Jesus Christ for salvation". Whether any individual soul was saved or not, we can't know.

I still think it would be a very good question to be answered by those who hold to the Feeneyites position. Do they hold out ANY hope that something transpired between him and God at the end? Do they pray for their souls in earnest?

Cantarella · « **Reply #36 on:** July 09, 2016, 07:13:48 PM »

Quote from: clare

Just wondering.

Presumably even Feeneyites have non-Catholic friends and relatives. Now, when, for example, a non-Catholic grandparent, aunt, uncle, parent, or sibling dies, do you pray for him? Or do you assume that he's damned? Do you hold out any hope that something transpired between him and God at the end?

As Catholics we should place Church doctrine above our own sentiments. Love for creatures should not supersede Love for God and his revealed Truth. The reason why people nowadays are so attached to a distorted notion of salvific BOD for the non-Catholic "at last second" is nothing but a displaced sentimentality. That same sentimentality behind the utter denial of the existence of Hell at all, as a concrete reality. People don't want to hear those things anymore. They're not popular today.

Reality is the Church does not offer public prayers for those who die outside of visible Communion with Her or those who live scandalous lives and die without repentance. Those are denied Catholic burials and the Priests cannot name them in their Masses. People can still pray "privately" for them, but it was pretty evident for Catholics before the Modernist plague that if you die visibly a non Catholic, you are damned and that to the damned, there is no hope; no prayer can help them. Catholics used to know this (this is very basic catechism), but not anymore. They don't want to believe it because it is a hard truth so they invent and use any loophole available to distort the reality of the dogma as it was written and understood by the Church.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #37 on:** July 10, 2016, 04:31:25 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Quote from: Arvinger
Quote from: clare
Just wondering.

Presumably even Feeneyites have non-Catholic friends and relatives. Now, when, for example, a non-Catholic grandparent, aunt, uncle, parent, or sibling dies, do you pray for him? Or do you assume that he's damned? Do you hold out any hope that something transpired between him and God at the end?

Again, just as Myrna you seem to think that Feeneyites are somehow judging individual souls, which is not the case. Feeneyites merely argue about objective requirements for salvation. Whether a pecific soul made it to heaven or not - we don't know.

Lets say you have an exam to enter the university - to make it you need, say, 60%. A profesor says before the exam "those of you who will reach 60% will make it into our university". Does he judge any specific individual chances? Of course, not. The same way Feeneyites say "it is necessary to receiver baptism and have explicit faith in Jesus Christ for salvation". Whether any individual soul was saved or not, we can't know.

I still think it would be a very good question to be answered by those who hold to the Feeneyites position. Do they hold out ANY hope that something transpired between him and God at the end? Do they pray for their souls in earnest?

DERAILING THREAD!!!!!!!

Undisciplined, irrelevant questions like this are what quickly and ultimately render a thread useless for future researchers into the subject of the title. Henceforth, I will be posting this warning on all threads.

Please start your own thread on the question you have. This is a good example of why I don't debate with women, they are generally disordered and undisciplined in their thinking. I should have made this clear when Clare first asked, however, her questions were answered by three people, and then Myrna asks the same exact question.

P.S.- calling a person a "Feeneyites" and asking him a question is akin to asking an SSPXer "What do you Lefebvrites think....". You are not going to engender yourself to anyone by addressing them in pejoratives.)

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #38 on:** July 10, 2016, 04:50:36 AM »

Which brings me to a thought:

How can a person call themselves disciplined and ordered thinkers when their thoughts are built on ever shifting sands? It is the same as self interpretation of scripture, as many sects as their are people.

Quote

The difference between those who read dogma as it is written (immovable foundations direct from God) and those that base their beliefs on endless theological refinement (shifting sands) is that one believes dogmas as they are clearly written, while the other holds the doctrinal position that dogma is not a definitive expression of our Faith, a formal object of Divine and Catholic Faith, but rather a human expression open to endless theological refinement.

All conciliars subject their religion to endless theological refinement, and today, all traditionalist bishops and seminaries do likewise. The only thing that separates them from the conciliarists is just degree, to them, the conciliarist have gone too far and do not look or act Catholic. Now, Bp. Fellay will soon join them to have a "traditionalist" voice in the endless theological refinement (= to bring in his opinion).

Ladislaus · « **Reply #39 on:** July 11, 2016, 11:17:58 AM »

We cannot pray PUBLICLY for those who have died outside the Church.

We can pray privately for them ... with this mindset. We know that God isn't bound by time and can foresee and possibly take into account future prayers offered for a person at the moment of their death. God can send an angel or bilocate a saintly priest to the site in order to confect the Sacrament if need be. Also, these prayers can win certain actual graces which could help mitigate the person's eternal punishment. In the end, prayers are never wasted. If the prayers do not have any effect for that person, God will still take them into account somehow. Provided one does not pray for these souls as if there were any objective hope of their salvation if they were to have died outside the Church. Again, even if the person may have appeared to die outside the Church and without Baptism, there's absolutely no limit to the power of God in providing these things even miraculously if need be. We have stories where saints raised people back to life in order to baptize them.