Author Topic: "Stay at Home" Catholicism (Read 13287 times)

Matthew · « **Reply #45 on:** August 29, 2008, 01:58:50 PM »

Has anyone here ever heard the famous excuse of the "un-churched"?

"I can find God out on a boat while I'm fishing as easily as I can find Him in church".

BUT -- the Catholic says, how often DO YOU ACTUALLY PRAY when you stop going to church regularly? How soon until you live like the complete unbeliever? And how in the world do you pass on what morals you acquired (from going to church, and from your parents WHO WENT TO CHURCH) to your sons and daughters?

Most of those criticisms can be applied to the "home aloner" Catholic as well.

Matthew

Matthew · « **Reply #46 on:** August 29, 2008, 02:08:08 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: MaterDominici
...it seems we all agree that the author of the PDF is extreme and WRONG in deciding the church isn't visible or doesn't exist...

Have we seen any quotes that definitively demonstrate that such is her belief? Or are we just dealing with a situation where a human being is at a loss as to how such complete devastation could have occurred, almost overnight, and what to do now?

The present situation - no matter what explanation you presently consider accurate - is so MONUMENTAL and UNPRECEDENTED, and we are ALL groping in the dark to one extent or another, it seems OBVIOUS that we should give MUCH MORE latitude than we are accustomed to give. Honestly, I think the UTTER LACK of latitude granted to others, whilst we grant OURSELVES latitude all day long and in the EXTREME, is precisely what turns non-Catholic and Novus Ordo people off to trads, and turns trads off with respect to each other. It is the Pharisaical phenomenon - "Splinters, splinters everywhere, but I don't see no beam!"

I repeat that I was more or less demolishing her argument ("home alonism is the only way for a faithful Catholic") but mixed "her" in there a bit -- because, not having a name, she was as nebulous as an idea.

Everything I have against sedevacantism I have against home alonism, and more.

In fact, one of the biggest downsides of sedevacantism is that it leads to home alonism (after you're so isolated because you can't find a "true Mass") and THAT is fatal to most Catholic, in my experience.

I remind you that I grew up in an independent chapel, with a retired Redemptorist priest (ordained in 1961; never said the N.O. Mass) who arrived in 1979 and is there to this day.

I saw our chapel grow to 120 people, with all types of people. I saw the fringe; I saw what happened to many of the children. I saw the world eat many of its parishioners alive. The priest didn't have time to attend to catechism, etc. because he was saying Mass for 5 other places on Sunday. There was little or no "let's stick together as Catholics" social life, to defend ourselves against the huge influence of The World.

And I know FOR A FACT that if so many bad things happen in an independent chapel (young ladies getting pregnant before marriage, others dating or marrying non-Catholics, still others ending up divorced) -- it would have been that much worse if they had stayed at home and not even gone to Mass. How could it be otherwise?

Matthew

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #47 on:** August 29, 2008, 02:11:41 PM »

Quote from: ChantCd

And yet the Sacraments should not be "given 2nd place" lightly. They ARE the ordinary means of salvation.

Your second sentence is, of course, absolutely true. Your first has no connection to what anyone has ACTUALLY SAID in this discussion. We are not presently speaking about what "place" to assign the Sacraments that were instituted by Incarnate Wisdom.

Quote

Christ didn't institute them (as well as the visible Church with its group worship of God) because He was bored one day. He did so very much on purpose.

Although this is clearly being offered for effect, the effect misses the mark. We all KNOW the truth to which you are alluding. To DO anything, one must have SOME purpose - even bored men.

Well, if the Novus is (the main?) part of the visible society He most certainly founded, why not go "group worship" with Benny?

Quote

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and all else shall be added unto you besides."

What else could the advice of Jesus POSSIBLY mean? If it doesn't mean "move where there's Mass, worry about food/clothing/shelter afterwards", then I don't know what it could mean.

If you do not realize that it COULD mean a great deal more, I cannot help you.

Relatively speaking, MANY people are going to Holy Mass regularly. Most do not pray all that much, never even consider regular mental prayer, and make little to no progress in the interior life of their poor souls - which is the ESSENCE of the building up of the Kingdom of God. Read Soul of the Apostolate. You will realize that the spiritual illness which Dom Chautard explains therein is THE characteristic of our time - even amongst trads who go often to the Mass.

Matthew · « **Reply #48 on:** August 29, 2008, 02:12:19 PM »

But I know that "no social life", "not supporting each other" is not intrinsic to parish life at a Traditional Catholic chapel.

Common sense says that it would be IMPOSSIBLE if there were no chapel. How do you make Catholic friends if no one goes to Church?

And keep in mind that A SOCIAL LIFE IS NECESSARY FOR A HUMAN BEING. That is a key point. If your chapel is a rag-tag crowd of 10 people, you are GOING to make plenty of non-Catholic friends to fill the void. That will certainly harm your spiritual life (the only question is "how much?")

The infamous false philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau is the one who taught than Man is not social by nature. He taught that we used to be irrational, naked animals before we came together in society under "the social contract". But that is a heretical notion condemned by the Church.

Man is NOT sufficient to himself. Survivalists get that wrong (on the order of nature) and Home Aloners get that wrong (on the order of grace).

There ARE many Catholic chapels with a vibrant social life, with Catholics helping each other emotionally, financially, spiritually, etc.

Matthew

Matthew · « **Reply #49 on:** August 29, 2008, 02:14:48 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote
"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and all else shall be added unto you besides."

What else could the advice of Jesus POSSIBLY mean? If it doesn't mean "move where there's Mass, worry about food/clothing/shelter afterwards", then I don't know what it could mean.

If you do not realize that it COULD mean a great deal more, I cannot help you.

Relatively speaking, MANY people are going to Holy Mass regularly. Most do not pray all that much, never even consider regular mental prayer, and make little to no progress in the interior life of their poor souls - which is the ESSENCE of the building up of the Kingdom of God. Read Soul of the Apostolate. You will realize that the spiritual illness which Dom Chautard explains therein is THE characteristic of our time - even amongst trads who go often to the Mass.

I don't really disagree with you here. I've seen plenty of cases to prove that "going to Mass isn't enough". It's the bare minimum.

I realize He's saying more than that, but I think the issue of "should I displace my family to be near a traditional Chapel" is explicitly answered by that scripture quote. You might disagree.

But to me, going to Mass is "seeking the Kingdom of God" par excellence. The graces received by one Mass well-attended is greater than anything else.

How can one propose daily fasting and scourgings, 3 hours daily mental prayer, reading 1 spiritual book per day, etc. -- with the catch, "if I stay here and don't move near a Traditional Mass chapel"

I'd say such a person is making a foolish move.

How can one claim to be going 'beyond', when the minimums aren't being met? That seems to me a classic case of "self-deception".

I, personally, would never presume to be strong enough to keep my Faith without Mass and the Sacraments.

Matthew

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #50 on:** August 29, 2008, 02:19:43 PM »

Quote from: ChantCd

...In fact, one of the biggest downsides of sedevacantism is that it leads to home alonism...

Despite your assertion, this is not an actual "fact" - and the experience of the VAST MAJORITY of sedevacantists proves it.

There are very few who choose, whate'er the reason, to stay away from all chapels. If sedevacantism led naturally to "home alone-ism", there would not BE any sedevacantists left at this stage - for they all would have "morphed" long ago. The FACT is that sedevacantism is seeing, and has steadily seen, a modest increase. Men are getting fed up with the double-minded nonsense of all other variants of "resistance", and they are tired of explaining away that which cannot EVER be explained away.

Matthew · « **Reply #51 on:** August 29, 2008, 02:21:14 PM »

It is a simple solution, I'll give you that.

But I'd like to keep the topic on "home alonism", not "sedevacantism".

For the Home Aloner, it's the ecclesia that is empty, not just the sede. That is an order of magnitude worse.

Matthew · « **Reply #52 on:** August 29, 2008, 02:28:49 PM »

Here is one of my biggest problems with Home Alonism (I'm reposting this, because I edited my post above and someone might not notice it)

Keep in mind that A SOCIAL LIFE IS NECESSARY FOR A HUMAN BEING. That is a key point. If your chapel is a rag-tag crowd of 10 people, you are GOING to make plenty of non-Catholic friends to fill the void. That will certainly harm your spiritual life (the only question is "how much?")

The infamous false philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau is the one who taught than Man is not social by nature. He taught that we used to be irrational, naked animals before we came together in society under "the social contract". But that is a heretical notion condemned by the Church.

Man is NOT sufficient to himself. Survivalists get that wrong (on the order of nature) and Home Aloners get that wrong (on the order of grace).

Think about this for a minute: WHY did Christ choose to have us worship Him in groups, rather than alone from our fishing boats and cabin retreats? He must have had a good reason. He knows human nature better than we.

Matthew

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #53 on:** August 29, 2008, 02:33:52 PM »

Quote from: ChantCd

But to me, going to Mass is "seeking the Kingdom of God" par excellence. The graces received by one Mass well-attended is greater than anything else.

Agreed. However, I think most of us are simply missing the necessary spiritual foundation to profit very much from the fruit available at Holy Mass. That is not the fault of the Mass, but of the dispositions we bring to it.

Pardon the poor, and perhaps inaccurate, analogy...Calculus is mathematics par excellence. However, if you have not been firmly grounded in the mathematics that serves as a necessary foundation for calculus, you will stare at the book until the proverbial cows come home without any profit.

"Grace builds upon nature."

Modern men are so incomprehensibly and catastrophically disordered on the natural level, that grace has a hard time building anything thereupon. It is like water being poured upon a rock (disordered nature), versus water poured upon a sponge (well-ordered nature).

Matthew · « **Reply #54 on:** August 29, 2008, 02:40:54 PM »

The man in my avatar talks about "grace building upon nature" all the time.

He uses the analogy of an airplane (grace) needing a good runway (nature).

God bless him, he must spend half his life on airplanes and waiting in airports.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #55 on:** August 29, 2008, 02:40:56 PM »

Quote from: ChantCd

It is a simple solution, I'll give you that.

I did not say such, and do not want it. Thank you for the generous offer all the same.

Quote

But I'd like to keep the topic on "home alonism", not "sedevacantism".

I can respect that, although you are the one who, from the very beginning, have attempted to make some kind of essential connection between the two.

Quote

For the Home Aloner, it's the ecclesia that is empty, not just the sede. That is an order of magnitude worse.

The SSPX sees the "Roman" ecclesia as empty, too, insofar as that is why they operate outside its confines. The same is true for the SSPX's behavior, in the practical order, toward the 'sede'. As I said, the latitude we readily grant to ourselves is often, if not always, denied to others.

Btw, supplied jurisdiction can only be presumed in cases where one CANNOT APPROACH the lawgiver (read canon law). Like it or not, the SSPX does NOT have that excuse.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #56 on:** August 29, 2008, 02:45:55 PM »

Quote from: ChantCd

The man in my avatar talks about "grace building upon nature" all the time.

Good on him. He says much with which I agree.

Quote

He uses the analogy of an airplane (grace) needing a good runway (nature).

Indeed, although once airborne, sufficient air is all it needs.

Quote

God bless him, he must spend half his life on airplanes and waiting in airports.

Which, oddly enough, is not a very natural existence.

We ALL move within a disordered, unnatural paradigm, and I think the effects are much worse than we suspect or realize.

Cletus · « **Reply #57 on:** August 29, 2008, 02:58:46 PM »

Which ecclesia does the Home Aloner see as empty? The one that Traditionalists call the NEW CONCILIAR Church on their better days and the Catholic Church (run by, alas, weak men) when some new sensational event involving chats with cardinals and Bishop Fellay, or TLM celebration permissions, have gotten them all happy and excited and desperately hopeful?

A building near the ecclesia of the cardinal archbishop of Vienna is not empty. It is full of unspeakably vile pictures of Jesus and the Twelve. It's an official function of Renewal. Widow's mites pay for it. But maybe the prelate involved is strong on the Motu?

The proper Catholic reaction to the fiends who run the Conciliar Church is to hope that the secular world itself improves at least to the extent that the authorities would just throw them in jail where they belong. Call them bishops? Successors of the Twelve? Offend God's ears with mention of their nauseating names during Holy Mass? Mislead souls by pretending to be in communion with them? Convince Catholics that letters to them should be respectful?

It's hard for me to formulate my basic objection to the late 60s Traditionalists ethic and paradigm. It's like getting it the wrong way around about who's greater, the Father or the Son, or Who begets Whom. It would be as though the Rich Young Man spoke of God's being good, and Christ said, "Why callest thou HIM good? I'm God and I'm standing right in front of you!"

"Why callest thou ME good? Only God is good!"

That has an unorthodox SOUND.

So does a lot of what so-called Home Aloners are forced by Truth to say.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #58 on:** August 29, 2008, 03:00:19 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

As you know, Cletus, such is actually fairly common. I have done it myself. However, I am now, after much experience, convinced that this is the WRONG way to go about it. I am disappointed, although not surprised, that priests do not discourage such a stupid course of action. How many lives, decently ordered previous to such a relocation, retard, regress, or unravel afterwards, in one way or another? People relocate for more frequent access to the Sacraments, yet they often were making MUCH MORE spiritual progress in their former situation. Bloom where you are planted, even if there is no Mass within an hour's drive. God does not NEED the Sacraments to give grace to anyone.

Would you think this course of action still stupid if the man had a family to concern himself with as well? The order of his life might suffer a bit short-term, but would it not be in the best long-term interest of especially his children?

I'm, of course, a woman, so any personal conclusions are much more convincing for me if I knew the individual had a larger picture in mind than just himself. But, if I'm correct, none of you--Gladius, Cletus, Roscoe--have children at home.

Cletus · « **Reply #59 on:** August 29, 2008, 03:35:36 PM »

I don't think that Modern Man is so horrendously disordered philosophically.

I think that it is only the desperately flailing post-Vatican II would-be faithful Catholic who is so horrendously disordered.

RESPECTFUL letters to so-called bishops who entice little children into Unnatural Vice as part of required catechetical training, as they generally do in most countries? THAT'S horrendously disordered. Your better class of Freethinking pimp and psychokiller doesn't dig corrupting kids in the name of Holy Jesus and just couldn't begin to think in terms of showing respect towards those who do so. THAT shows a basic Godliness and sanity which would-be faithful Catholics should pray to acquire, as they pray twice as hard for the grace of living down the falsehood of their more "nuanced" and "theologically savvy" and "pious" attitude towards the demonic Conciliar Church top management.

Author Topic: &quot;Stay at Home&quot; Catholicism (Read 13287 times)

Author Topic: "Stay at Home" Catholicism (Read 13287 times)