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Offline Matthew

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"Stay at Home" Catholicism
« on: August 27, 2008, 06:00:29 PM »
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  • I have a PDF file that someone sent me. (I will send it to you on request -- it's dangerous to the Faith, and so I won't post it here) It rips apart Traditional Catholicism -- but it is from someone who claims to be a Catholic, and they are NOT Novus Ordo!

    The 36-page PDF was written anonymously, but purely on my intuition I'm guessing it was written by an older woman. Why? I can't explain it, but there are ways you can tell. As you know, a man's brain operates differently than a woman's brain. That's all there is to it. Some people have a strong intuition and can "read people" very well.

    Anyhow, this lady is sad.

    She demolishes independent chapels/sedevacantism, then the SSPX (she spends plenty of time here) then she laments how the Novus Ordo is destroying the true Catholic Faith. "What position is she then, being as she claims to be Catholic?" I thought. Well, she advocates staying at home and reading about 8 books (she doesn't like TAN books either!)

    Very sad.  I hypothesize that she started out Sede (which basically is her current position plus a small chapel and a priest) and when that went sour, she was left with nothing. I think it's a good example of what sedevacantism leads to.

    All I know, is that her "plan" wouldn't last a generation. Even if she has the fortitude to stick with her program, her kids certainly won't. I think it's "de fide" that the Sacraments are the ordinary means of salvation for men. She misses the vital point that when the Church is gone, the world ends ON THAT SAME DAY.

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    Offline Cletus

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    « Reply #1 on: August 27, 2008, 10:53:05 PM »
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  • Chapel priests are notorious for barring would-be worshipers according to their own whims.

    Traditional priests themselves contribute heavily to the proliferation of de facto "Home Aloners."

    It is NOT de fide that priest-bound Sacraments are absolutely necessary for salvation.

    Not even water and reference to the Trinity are absolutely necessary for Baptism (of Implicit Desire).

    Sound Catholic instincts all point in the direction of Keep Away From Chapels Catholicism.

    "Beware of the one who comes but was not sent."

    Now, how about considering what left-wing Traditionalism can lead to? Offenses against the spirit of truth such as pious sermonettes about how the Holy Father looked SO pained by the recent sacrileges he occasioned at World Youth Day which slowly but surely (because WE HAVE A POPE) segue into claims that the liturgical innovations weren't so bad after all?

    The real danger nowaday is to be into one's Self as an official card-carrying, some-sort-of-church-going Catholic and not into Truth. Not into God.

    It's wrong to speculate on the sex of a writer who has not stated what his sex is. What if a man wrote that screed ad reads the above post or has friends or acquaintances who might read it? You would be guilty of extremely grave contumely. It is extremely injurious to a man's reputation to say that his mind works like that of a woman. It wasn't necessary to bring in that theme at all. Just as it isn't necessary, just as it's sinister, to bring in whose married and who might not be, and who has babies and who doesn't.

    Chapel stuff is all secondary. Personal Charity and good faith and truthfulness come first. The Catholic Home stuff.



    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #2 on: August 27, 2008, 11:05:34 PM »
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  • Wow -- you must have a low opinion of women to think that I committed a sin by calling "it" a woman. (See why I had to pick a sex? Calling a human being "it" isn't very charitable either!)

    I wasn't slandering him/her -- just criticizing the untenable position of "Home Aloners" (NOW I remember that term!)

    I was being VERY charitable by assuming she is a woman. The PDF's "arguments" were very irrational, and would be more understandable/justifiable if it were a kindly old woman reaching those conclusions.

    If you read the PDF (as I have) you'd understand why I reached the conclusion that the writer was female. He/she sounded very emotion-driven and acted like many women I've seen/heard about/read about. I know human nature very well, and I'm good at making educated guesses about such a fundamental trait (one's gender).

    I am very interested in the Truth, and the Catholic Faith -- which is why I'm against anything that would harm it (and souls). That's why I'm against the "Home alone" sect.

    I suppose, like the Sedevacantists, their heart COULD (theoretically) be in the right place. We ARE living in an unprecedented crisis. But that doesn't make the position any less dangerous for their soul (and the souls of those around them).

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    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #3 on: August 27, 2008, 11:13:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cletus

    Sound Catholic instincts all point in the direction of Keep Away From Chapels Catholicism.


    Do we have a Home Aloner in our midst?

    The lady (?) in the PDF talked about how she experienced this emotional epiphany when the words of the Nicene Creed struck her all the sudden: "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic" and realized that all the independent chapels didn't have unity. So she stopped going to Mass.

    Here is where her idea falls apart: how do you explain how the Church ceased to exist a number of decades ago?  What about ANOTHER place in the Gospels, where Our Lord promises Peter that "the gates of Hell will not prevail against it".

    She actually said, "The Church has to be accessible by the common man, and not require a high intellect to understand subtleties and a complex Church crisis." but who is going to find the Church when it's invisible?

    When the Church comes to an end, so does the world. That is touching on the Catholic Faith, if not de fide.

    Our Lord would not let His Church come to an end, and then "forget" to wrap things up with the Last Judgment! The very thought is ludicrous!

    Our Lord certainly keeps His promises. Anything contrary to that would be outright blasphemy.


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    Offline Adesto

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    « Reply #4 on: August 28, 2008, 04:45:38 AM »
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    You would be guilty of extremely grave contumely. It is extremely injurious to a man's reputation to say that his mind works like that of a woman.


     :confused1:

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    Offline Cletus

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    « Reply #5 on: August 28, 2008, 06:45:55 AM »
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  • I do not have a low opinion of women.

    I have written nothing that indicates that I have a low opinion of women.

    I think that everyone following this thread and contributing to it knows that.  

    I also think that every man here, were he attached to a lie detector and had he a gun pointed at his head, the one holding the latter having threatened to use it should a lie be detected, would answer Yes to the question: "Would you feel deeply mortified and offended if another man read something you wrote and, while being vague about its contents because of its allegedly pernicious nature, went on and on about how an old lady must have written it?"

    The reason why I am justified in supposing that the "old ladiness" quality would not be so apparent to me or anyone else were I or they to read the Stay at Home screed is that the critic spoke of "intuition" as the basis for his judgment. Not a liberal peppering with "Oh, dearie me's!" or "Tsk, tsk, tsks!" or personal revelations such as "I can't prove the claim I made because I it was time to feed Kitty- I have a life

    The insolent and not very clever term "Home Aloner" was coined by a sedevacantist priest whose worldly facetiousness does him no credit. It refers to a silly 1990 movie comedy and is not grammatically correct.

    If we must use humorous terms to describe what is actually the safest and probable Catholic stance in these apocalyptic times let's use the term Stay Away From Chapelers. This term is also accurate. The point on both sides has nothing to do with staying at home. It has to do with not going to Novus Ordo churches or Traditionalist or sedevacantist chapels.

    It may not be contumelious to call another human being, even one who wrote anonymously, "it". But it certainly is not very nice. The hostility exhibited towards the writing in question precludes an appeal to humorousness. The whole observation about sex was at best unnecessary and tendentious.

    What now? A defense of the rock hard masculinity behind the present "Holy Father's" claim in his THEOLOGIACL REFLECTIONS that the best assurance he had of the value of Vatican II's ecuмenical program was the wonderful FEELING OF LOVE he got when he was dialoguing in a room with Protestants once?

    We have to keep a sense of proportion. Why pick on some poor old sedevacantist "lady" whose has a 36 page "Home Aloner" screed floating about the edges of the internet as a menace to the Church Christ Founded when those with REAL worldwide influence and, supposedly, some sort of claim on the obedience and docility of every soul on earth, encourage sins against the First Commandment (Assisi) and display unspeakably filthy pictures of the Church Founder in question as fuctions of(Vienna)? Spirit-mandated Renewal being cited in both cases with those to whom the authority to bind consciences is attributed by Traditionalist theologizing?

    Whatever Traditionalist squawking there is about the former enormity is neutralized by "on the other hand" warnings against schismatic attitudes and by pious attempts at partial justifications for the indifferentist extravaganza. There was no serious Traditionalist objection to the latter abomination. Tough guys wisecracked about sending the Swiss Guard in with Uzis. Big joke. Maybe because the fiendish cardinal archbishop in question (who victimized little children, by the way, with his "art") is thought to be on board with the Motu.

    There is a reason why Archbishop Lefebvre spoke of Rome's being in the hands of Antichrists. "They have dethroned Him! They are sons of the Revolution!"

    Well, they haven't changed in forty years. They've grown worse. Traditionalists are the ones who have changed. They're more into upholding the Jurisdiction of these monsters against sedevacantists than they are in denouncing in full measure the harm that comes from putting one's soul under the supposed Jurisdiction of those Modernist and Liberals and Hegelians and Revolutionaries in Rome.


    Offline Cletus

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    « Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 06:49:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: Adesto
    Quote
    You would be guilty of extremely grave contumely. It is extremely injurious to a man's reputation to say that his mind works like that of a woman.


     :confused1:


    What seems to be the problem?

    Offline Dulcamara

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    « Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 08:48:58 AM »
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  • As an objective observer, I'd say it would be idiotic in any case to turn this thread into a post on the "battle of the sexes" and equality of women (not that there is such a thing, since apples and oranges cannot ever really be equal even as fellow fruits).

    There is something here worth discussing... this strange aspect of the crisis of the Church, whereby someone would actually abandon all the apparent options and just flee. THAT, I believe, was the point of the post, and is worth discussing as such. Whether or not the person who wrote it was a woman really, in the scheme of things, doesn't matter, and has no real bearing upon the issue at hand. It would, however, be interesting to actually discuss the topic that it DOES raise, if anyone else would care to give their views.

    Personally, my point of view is thus... Christ founded a church, and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. That's pretty plain language there. Secondly, St. Thomas, I believe, pointed out in his Summa how that, according to justice, if there is to be a hell and a punishment for not obeying God, then all men of all time must be able to find the truth... it cannot be invisible.

    While the average layperson may be deeply confused or scandalized by what has passed in the Church over the last 40 years or so, that doesn't mean the Church becomes invisible. If it has problems, does it loose it's identity? That hardly smacks of reason. Is the situation distressing? Of course. Confusing? Absolutely. Bizarre? Definitely. Unprecedented? I'm sure. But none of those things would result in the church being destroyed.

    It's difficult to sort out the picture for many people. What common sense DOES obviously suggest, is that the answer has got to be one that both the intellectuals and the lowest of intellects could probably figure out. What is that? Well... if someone comes in and tries to change what God put down... you just don't go along with that. That much, I think, is obvious. What then is the answer that any intellect would be able to find? Go on with the Faith as it was before.

    This answer, of course, means not denying anything of the Faith as it was... neither it's visibility, it's promised continuation, it's apostolic succession, or the need for clergy and the sacraments. This does require careful discretion. Having to admit that "something is wrong" is painful to some people, and as a result, they'd rather go along with the changes (apparently) destroying the Church from within. Having to "sort it out" is daunting to others, and so they choose a solution that is simple and easy, and removes the problem of having to think and perhaps make great sacrifices to cling to the true Mass and sacraments. Let's face it, it's easier to throw the baby out with the bath water than having the burden of living it as fully as one can in a time of such trial to the Faith. I'm sure some people in the days of the early martyrs thought it "unreasonable" for Christ to ask people to die rather than "just get along" with everybody else, and so they denied their faith or else held it so loosely that they could practice paganism alongside it. That's nothing remarkable. There have always been those who don't want the fight, the sacrifice and the effort that is the fight for salvation. But it has existed in various forms for most of history, usually in outward persecutions, and often requiring the lives of those who hold to it. But this is the "pearl of great price" and worth giving up "everything one owns" even one's life, to keep it. I very much doubt that just because it's the year 2000, and "everything is better now," that we somehow have passed the days when having or holding the faith is a hard, often bitter and heavy cross to carry. It's foolish to think that because of the date on the calendar, today we have a right to easy, comfy, non-problematic and no-sacrifice religion.

    Heaven is a great prize. But nobody will win it without great effort. In times past, many have bought it with their blood. Today it seems we must buy it with great emotional and intellectual hardship, having to "sort out" this mess with a downright saintly balance of letter and spirit of the law. To err on either side is to err indeed. It's a tightrope, but heaven is at the other end. It's not easy, but we won't win heaven by running away from anything that isn't.

    "Home alone" faith seems like a runaway answer of someone who knows something is gravely wrong, sees the problems in many of the solutions, and has been confused enough by everyone around them to not find their way to the most probable answer, and so, in frustration, has decided it's much too hard to figure out at all, and therefore the answer is to give up, go home, and do their own thing.

    Reason would suggest, however, that if there is a grave problem, and one has examined all the solutions, finding them all lacking, that either there exists a solution one has not yet found, or else one has misjudged or erred in one's opinion of one of the proposed solutions. But in regards to the perfect religion of Christ, the solution must be complete and not heretical in any way. Rejection of the clergy outright, however rotten, would be error. Common sense says there ARE real priests out there somewhere. The only real issue is to find them. And there we can take a hint from the Bible, "I know mine, and mine know me." The sheep recognize the voice of the shepherd. We know His words and His works, and ought to know His religion when we see it. And, "by their fruits you shall know them."

    Of course we also have to give reason and God's law/religion the last word in our choice. Ultimately, it's not "what religion do we want to go with?" but "where is the real thing?" Therefore it also stands to reason that some people will not LIKE the real thing, even if they find it. (Just like dying for it wasn't fun way back when.) Intellect, not emotion, has to have the last word. That's what God gave it to us for.
    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi


    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #8 on: August 28, 2008, 09:02:16 AM »
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    Offline Cletus

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    « Reply #9 on: August 28, 2008, 10:21:40 AM »
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  • The original poster, despite his subsequent agreement that the matter is unimportant, was the one who made his "intuitions" the sex of the anonymous writer whose text he did not want to reproduce a matter of some importance. I think we all know why that was underneath the special pleading bluff and bluster. "Home Aloners either ARE old ladies or may as well be."

    But having said that and pointed out that nothing I wrote indicates that I have a low opinion of women, I agree that the matter can be dropped.

    I said that the term "Home Aloner" is insolent and inaccurate and ungrammatical. I'm happy to see that at least no one was dishonest enough to dispute my claim. I'm unhappy that it was then used to describe me. Especially when I offered an alternative. But that's Free Speech for you. Just have to point that out. We all have our little tricks. One of mine is to talk past adversaries on message boards as I see fit. I can see how that might be considered rude. (Of course, I don't.)

    I don't object to the way in which my statements and questions about the supreme iniquity of the Vatican II cult and its top leadership are simply ignored. I ignore parts of my adversaries' posts all the time. But obviously, those who talk up Vatican II church "Jurisdiction" and make the Holy Savior the ultimate guarantor of the success of supreme iniquity in this world have no good answers to these obvious questions.

    "What good does it do souls to cross one's fingers behind one's back and attribute theoretical Jurisdiction over them to the worst sworn enemies His Gospel, His Holy Spirit, and he ever had?"

    No answer.

    "What good does believing that the Concilar Church is the Church of Christ do anyone? How on earth and in heaven can calling its 'Modernistic, Hegelian, Liberal, Revolutionary, Public Indecency Promoting" leader the Vicar of Christ and Immediate Pastor Over All Souls do anyone?"

    No answer.

    "Why would Christ want an Antichrist as the Vicar of Christ?"

    No answer.

    I understand that there are some so-called Home Aloners who make their position a matter of clear canon law and accuse the Traditionalist and sedevacantist bishops and priests of being in violation of that law. I don't hold that position. I think that it's possible that some bishops and priests might have been able to keep some kind of parochial operation going back in the 1960s. But the form that parochial life took would not have been what we got with Traditionalism. These latter strike me as well-meaning interlopers who mean well less and less as the years roll by and they get too big for their breeches.

    I also have to point out that there was no answer to my claim that Traditional chapel priests are prime offenders in the creation of de facto Home Aloners. "You're not welcome here because you were overheard to criticize the Holy Father last Sunday, and the Sunday before that you said that the Society should negotiate more humbly with that diseased Hegelian."

    But as far as I know the sedevacantist priests are the worst in the Home Aloner creation department.


    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #10 on: August 28, 2008, 10:38:51 AM »
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  • Staying at home instead of attending Mass is the stock behavior of the unbeliever, not the Catholic. If you have a Traditional chapel within driving distance, you should go, as Christ didn't institute the Sacraments for no good reason.

    Do you believe the Church has ended, or not?

    If so, I must ask: How can you believe that the Sacrifice of Calvary can cease to be offered, and the world not be punished immediately? Only the blood of Christ can hold back the Divine vengeance which so many crimes deserve. You are old enough to know what kind of heinous sins are committed all over the world, every day (infanticide, abortion, multilation, abuse, sodomy, worse sins against the 6th commandment, usury, blasphemy, etc.)

    You seem to be focused on the current pope and bishops -- but those in the SSPX (for instance) are not. We don't need to look to them for every thing we do. Most of what we do is based on our Catholic Faith, which can be learned from good books, priests, etc.

    The Pope has no authority to break down the Church, so when he does something that destroys the Church he is acting as "Joseph Ratzinger" and not as the Pope. The Pope, AS POPE, intrinsically has to build up the Church. Hence the SSPX is the Pope's best ally in that respect -- we are actually building up the Church, not tearing it down. We aren't selling churches to pay for scandals, nor are we lacking vocations or conversions. In fact, we are building schools and churches.

    We don't claim that the modernism-infected hierarchy hold the only jurisdiction. The SSPX has supplied jurisdiction. And we certainly don't find every opportunity to make excuses for the pope.

    It's as if that's the easiest argument to prosecute, so you go that route. I would say it's close to a "straw man" argument -- (For those not familiar with a "straw man" argument: It's where you set up a straw man and proceed to slash him to bits, because it's easy to do so. But you're not demolishing the true argument, just the straw man which tends to exaggerate or misrepresent your opponent)

    Why not talk about the merits/demerits of not attending the Sacraments on a regular basis -- how to convert others around you when you don't even go to church (Imagine your ex-Catholic or agnostic friends -- "Hey man, I don't go to church either! Cool!" and you're like, "Nononono.... you don't understand...") how do you pass on the faith to children when there's nothing outside the family involved, etc.

    I am not approaching this from pure ignorance -- I have a wide traditional background. I was raised in an independent chapel, so I know its ethos -- VERY WELL. I also attended the indult, so I know that flavor as well. Lastly, I attended an SSPX seminary for 3 1/2 years so I am intimately familiar with not only the SSPX, but the many errors/movements that occured throughout Church history as well as human nature itself, inside-out.

    I wonder if "Stay away from chapels"-ism is especially popular in America. Because only HERE do we have such excessive individualism, desire to be a loner/maverick, and the pioneer attitude which is so peculiar to Americans.

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    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #11 on: August 28, 2008, 10:56:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cletus
    The original poster, despite his subsequent agreement that the matter is unimportant, was the one who made his "intuitions" the sex of the anonymous writer whose text he did not want to reproduce a matter of some importance. I think we all know why that was underneath the special pleading bluff and bluster. "Home Aloners either ARE old ladies or may as well be."


    Actually, if I had to give a summary of "my argument", it would be "this particular home aloner has not given any compelling reason to stay at home from Traditional Catholic chapels."

    It was basically the Sede position, combined with a demolition of the sede position. Destroying everything does not equal building up something.

    I would be interested to know how a "home aloner" passes on the faith to others -- whether non-believers or children. It seems like it would only work for those who had the Catholic Faith instilled into them -- who attended Church, catechism, etc. -- in the past.

    It's something that would get weaker with every generation. For example, The PDF author mentioned Japan as one of our models. But has she SEEN Japan? They are about the least Catholic nation on the globe. It was NOT good for the Faith there to have no priests for 2 centuries.

    And in that case, there WAS no priests, so God gave his grace to many directly. But if you're just MISTAKEN about the availability of priests, or you just can't get along with them, or you just prefer being alone, I don't think God will treat you the same way.

    Matthew
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    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #12 on: August 28, 2008, 11:11:47 AM »
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    Offline Dulcamara

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    « Reply #13 on: August 28, 2008, 11:31:06 AM »
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  • Actually, what happened in Japan was that over time, minus the priests, many of the Japanese sloshed Buddhism (and probably other things) together with Catholicism, and took up a hodgepodge mixture of both.

    This is what happens without shepherds.

    Human nature = "I wanna do things my way! WHAT I like, WHEN I like, HOW I like..."

    Priests are the ones who, being in authority (if we can still remember what that word is supposed to mean; not "power of the people going upward to the authority figure, but rather coming down from God, and therefore ABOVE us, and not beneath us), normally lay down the law. And if the laity don't like what God said, they can choose hell instead. That's the "nasty" truth for you. Reality is "God's way or damnation."

    But we fallen human beings, without authority, will, by our own weakness, tend automatically toward what we like, what we want, how we want things to be or wish they were, and to reject anything that goes against what we want or like. Authority is a protection, when it is not abused. And I think only a fool would say, "Every single priest on earth is abusing his power."

    In Japan, without authority to remind the laity that truth is exclusive, and that there is only one God, they went not only against God's religion, but against truth and even common sense, and sloshed Buddhism in with Catholicism. And many will not now renounce that mixture, because they like it, and refuse to submit to the authority of the Church in her priests who are trying to save their souls.

    Something much the same will happen to those who are foolish enough to forsake all shepherds. One error or another will creep in. One selfish, willful disobedience or another (if not many), will, if unchecked, drive us into error and perhaps (if we persist in it) into hell. There is no safety in across-the-board disobedience, just like there is no safety in across-the-board obedience (that is, obedience regardless of God's law). When we try to simplify things to that point, we end up following not God, but ourselves and one another, and "if the blind lead the blind, both fall into the pit."

    Christ left shepherds for his flock. Now when's the last time you saw the sheep (even if the shepherd was letting the wolves eat his flock), get up, grab a shepherd's staff away, and bop him over the head with it? We're supposed to be sheep. The shepherds are supposed to lead and protect the flock. There are still real shepherds out there, and they are using the authority which Christ vested them with to lead, and not destroy His flock. Our duty as sheep, is to find those shepherds, not just sit around and revolt against the bad ones, while halfway down the wolves' throats ourselves.

    The sheep will never, ever be a replacement for the shepherds. It's just not going to happen. Thanks be...
    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi

    Offline Matthew

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    "Stay at Home" Catholicism
    « Reply #14 on: August 28, 2008, 11:36:30 AM »
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