Author Topic: "reduced to a handful" (Read 4077 times)

Nonno · « **Reply #10 on:** July 10, 2011, 02:22:53 AM »

All jurisdiction and apostolic succession is rooted in the Bishop of Rome. It has the potency from that See geographically. The bishop in my scenario needs no jurisdiction in order to be elected Pope. Once elected, his universal jurisdiction becomes active precisely because of his position as the Bishop of the particular See. He could then consecrate other bishops, and assign them to territories where they would have their own ordinary jurisdiction in the territory given them.

If you still have a problem with my original scenario, then be specific about what you think is wrong with it.

Caminus · « **Reply #11 on:** July 11, 2011, 04:42:12 PM »

Quote

The bishop in my scenario needs no jurisdiction in order to be elected Pope.

That's not the point, rather it is that bishops must possess ordinary jurisdiction to rule, teach and sanctify within Christ's Church. It is this divine authority which is the formal element in Apostolic Succession. A Bishop without ordinary jurisdiction is not properly a Successor. A Church without jurisdiction, as residing in the bishops, flowing immediately from the Bishop of Rome, is a Church that lacks an essential characteristic of Christ's Church. Such a Church ceases to be the Church of Christ. It doesn't revivify, it must be handed on in succession. That is why the totality of traditional Bishops do not constitute the Church. And that is why theoretical sedevacantism harbors a deadly error. Therefore you have made an error in judgment and must revise your opinion.

Nonno · « **Reply #12 on:** July 11, 2011, 05:08:46 PM »

Totally wrong Caminus. The Catholic books say that a layman can be elected a pope. Do I have to repeat that? A layman can be elected, and a layman has no jurisdiction. The books say as soon as he accepts the election, he automatically obtains UNIVERSAL and full jurisdiction of a pope. That principle is at the heart of my whole scenario. UNIVERSAL and full jurisdiction is the source of all jurisdiction given to other bishops. He only has to point and nod to another bishop to give him ordinary jurisdiction of another defined territory, such as Iceland, etc.

Caminus · « **Reply #13 on:** July 11, 2011, 08:45:41 PM »

I'm not talking about who can be elected Pope. Read what I wrote again. The Church cannot be without ordinary jurisdiction. If the entire hierarchy has defected, there is no ordinary jurisidiction remaining. Traditional Bishops do not by their own admission possess ordinary jurisdiction. But if no one possesses ordinary jurisdiction, the Church has essentially vanished. This authority cannot "revive" like grace or merit. It must always exist within the Church in a continuous succession otherwise it ceases to be.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #14 on:** July 11, 2011, 08:50:13 PM »

Quote from: Nonno

Totally wrong Caminus. The Catholic books say that a layman can be elected a pope. Do I have to repeat that? A layman can be elected, and a layman has no jurisdiction. The books say as soon as he accepts the election, he automatically obtains UNIVERSAL and full jurisdiction of a pope. That principle is at the heart of my whole scenario. UNIVERSAL and full jurisdiction is the source of all jurisdiction given to other bishops. He only has to point and nod to another bishop to give him ordinary jurisdiction of another defined territory, such as Iceland, etc.

Not to go off-topic, but no one can't. You can't be elected Pope if you aren't even ordained a priest. If you think anyone can be elected Pope, it only shows you're an extremist (probably Father C, who is an extremist) and should be kicked off this site. The definition of an extremist is mis-used by modernists. If they think people who support the Traditional Latin Mass are extremists, they haven't seen anything until they see people like CM and "Pope" Augustine II. Unfortunetly, you seem to fit that category as well.