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Author Topic: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?  (Read 1770 times)

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Online SkidRowCatholic

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There are certainly many things one can learn from the Western Schism and compare some such actions of Catholics during that crisis to the crisis of our own time.

Question(s):

1) Should the material error of St. Vincent Ferrer when naming Benedict XIII in the Canon of the Mass as Pope be equated with naming Leo XIV in the Canon now?

2) How were the papal claimants during the Western Schism essentially DIFFERENT than the post Vatican II claimants?

Claim(s):

I do not think any of 3 papal claimants during the Western Schism were public, manifest, heretics.
(I am open to being corrected on that if credible evidence of heresy can be produced).

I believe that the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresies.
(Which, in essence, is what differentiates the Western Schism from the current crisis - concerning the above questions.)

I believe that If Benedict had been a manifest public heretic, Vincent would not have named him in the Canon of the Mass.

Therefore St. Vincent naming antipope Benedict XIII in the Canon of Mass was only a material error and not a sacrilegious act because he and many others were only in material error about who the actual Pope was.

Hence, when evaluating which action one should take regarding holding communion with heretical popes the actions of St. Vincent et. nal. should not be equated in this matter.

Annex:
If you do not believe the post-Vatican II claimants are manifest public heretics, then none of the above is relevant to you.

Offline JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 10:21:38 AM »
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  • There are certainly many things one can learn from the Western Schism and compare some such actions of Catholics during that crisis to the crisis of our own time.

    Question(s):

    1) Should the material error of St. Vincent Ferrer when naming Benedict XIII in the Canon of the Mass as Pope be equated with naming Leo XIV in the Canon now?

    2) How were the papal claimants during the Western Schism essentially DIFFERENT than the post Vatican II claimants?

    Claim(s):

    I do not think any of 3 papal claimants during the Western Schism were public, manifest, heretics.
    (I am open to being corrected on that if credible evidence of heresy can be produced).

    I believe that the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresies.
    (Which, in essence, is what differentiates the Western Schism from the current crisis - concerning the above questions.)

    I believe that If Benedict had been a manifest public heretic, Vincent would not have named him in the Canon of the Mass.

    Therefore St. Vincent naming antipope Benedict XIII in the Canon of Mass was only a material error and not a sacrilegious act because he and many others were only in material error about who the actual Pope was.

    Hence, when evaluating which action one should take regarding holding communion with heretical popes the actions of St. Vincent et. nal. should not be equated in this matter.

    Annex:
    If you do not believe the post-Vatican II claimants are manifest public heretics, then none of the above is relevant to you.
    “When Pope Honorius was condemned, he was condemned as Pope. And yet, the Council of Constantinople – I believe it was Pope Leo II, although I’m not sure - condemned Pope Honorius for favoring heresy. He didn’t say “he favored heresy, so he was no longer the Pope.” No. And neither did he say "since he was the pope, you had to obey him and accept what he said.” No, because he condemned him! So what did [Catholics] have to do then? Well, one had to admit that Pope Honorius was the Pope, but one did not have to follow him because he favoured heresy!  Isn't that the conclusion then? That seems to me the normal conclusion. Well, we're in that situation. One day these popes will be condemned by their successors. One day the truth will return.”

    (Archbishop Lefebvre, Conference on Sedevacantism and Liberalism, Econe, 1984)


    Online SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 10:47:17 AM »
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  • “When Pope Honorius was condemned, he was condemned as Pope. And yet, the Council of Constantinople – I believe it was Pope Leo II, although I’m not sure - condemned Pope Honorius for favoring heresy. He didn’t say “he favored heresy, so he was no longer the Pope.” No. And neither did he say "since he was the pope, you had to obey him and accept what he said.” No, because he condemned him! So what did [Catholics] have to do then? Well, one had to admit that Pope Honorius was the Pope, but one did not have to follow him because he favoured heresy!  Isn't that the conclusion then? That seems to me the normal conclusion. Well, we're in that situation. One day these popes will be condemned by their successors. One day the truth will return.”

    (Archbishop Lefebvre, Conference on Sedevacantism and Liberalism, Econe, 1984)



    I will go with St. Robert's assessment of Pope Honorius over that of +Lefebvre's.
    In fact, it was mainly Protestants that accused him of heresy, while Catholic authors generally defended him from this charge.

    Also, notice how it is citing CathInfo as a source! Maybe Matthew doesn't need to make a "Catholic AI" after all! :laugh1:


    AI sources aside, St. Robert's position and many others on Honorius is well docuмented.

    There is no comparison to the hypothesis of what to do in the case of manifest, public heretical Pope between Honorius and the post-Vatican II claimants.

    Offline JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 11:05:28 AM »
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  • I will go with St. Robert's assessment of Pope Honorius over that of +Lefebvre's.
    In fact, it was mainly Protestants that accused him of heresy, while Catholic authors generally defended him from this charge.

    Also, notice how it is citing CathInfo as a source! Maybe Matthew doesn't need to make a "Catholic AI" after all! :laugh1:


    AI sources aside, St. Robert's position and many others on Honorius is well docuмented.

    There is no comparison to the hypothesis of what to do in the case of manifest, public heretical Pope between Honorius and the post-Vatican II claimants.

    “... the defenders of tradition are divided. Some say that the Decrees of Rome, signed or carried out by the Pope, are so bad that the Pope cannot be a legitimate Pope, he is a usurper. There is therefore no Pope, the See is vacant. Others affirm that the Pope cannot sign decrees which are destructive of the Faith and therefore these decrees are acceptable and one must submit to them. The Society [of St. Pius X] does not accept one or the other of these two solutions, but supported by the history of the Church and the doctrine of theologians, thinks that the Pope can favorize the ruin of the Church by choosing bad collaborators and allowing them to act, by signing decrees which do not engage his infallibility, sometimes even by his own admission, which cause considerable harm to the Church. Nothing is more dangerous to the Church than liberal Popes who are in a continual state of incoherence.  On the other hand, we think that God can allow the Church to be afflicted with this misfortune. Consequently we pray for the Pope but we refuse to follow him in his folly in regard to religious liberty, ecuмenism, socialism and the application of reforms which are ruinous for the Church. Our apparent disobedience is true obedience to the Church and the Pope as successor of Peter in the measure that he continues to maintain Tradition.”
    (Principles and Directives - 1982 General Chapter)

    Online SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 11:29:41 AM »
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  • (Principles and Directives - 1982 General Chapter)
    You certainly may choose to keep quoting +Lefebrve as if he was you infallible rule of faith who holds the answer to every issue with this crisis.

    But you have not addressed the main claims of the OP in any substantial way.

    To be fair, I suppose it could be taken that you do NOT hold that either the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresy and/or the post-Vatican II putative popes have committed manifest public heresy.

    In such a case as I stated above in the Annex, the whole OP would be irrelevant to you, because the issue for you is not that official heresy is coming from the "popes" manifestly and publicly, rather they are just "in error" and "hurting the Church", "leading bad", etc. In such a case if true, then that would demolish my entire argument.

    So if that is what you are arguing then there is nothing more to be said between us on this topic.

    But, if you do agree that the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresy and the post-Vatican II claimants are manifest public heretics then you have "skin in the game".


    Offline JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 06:32:21 PM »
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  • You certainly may choose to keep quoting +Lefebrve as if he was you infallible rule of faith who holds the answer to every issue with this crisis.

    But you have not addressed the main claims of the OP in any substantial way.

    To be fair, I suppose it could be taken that you do NOT hold that either the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresy and/or the post-Vatican II putative popes have committed manifest public heresy.

    In such a case as I stated above in the Annex, the whole OP would be irrelevant to you, because the issue for you is not that official heresy is coming from the "popes" manifestly and publicly, rather they are just "in error" and "hurting the Church", "leading bad", etc. In such a case if true, then that would demolish my entire argument.

    So if that is what you are arguing then there is nothing more to be said between us on this topic.

    But, if you do agree that the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresy and the post-Vatican II claimants are manifest public heretics then you have "skin in the game".
    +Archbishop Lefebvre fits both the “bishop dressed in white” of Sister Lucia and the holy prelate of Our Lady of Good Success. That’s why I take every word he says seriously.


    Online Catholic Knight

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  • +Archbishop Lefebvre fits both the “bishop dressed in white” of Sister Lucia and the holy prelate of Our Lady of Good Success. That’s why I take every word he says seriously.

    He is not the Holy Prelate prophesied by Our Lady of Good Success.  The Holy Prelate will return the Convent of the Conceptionist nuns in Quito, Ecuador to the jurisdiction of the Franciscan Order.  That has not happened yet.


    Offline Gray2023

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  • If you have not read the docuмent "Gaudium es Spes"  please do so right now.  It is the most obvious docuмent that shows Vatican 2 changed the direction of Rome, from a God centered religion to a man-centered religion.  This is the docuмent that keeps me from joining back with Rome.
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine