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Author Topic: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?  (Read 1833 times)

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Offline SkidRowCatholic

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"Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
« on: Yesterday at 10:15:17 AM »
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    • There are certainly many things one can learn from the Western Schism and compare some such actions of Catholics during that crisis to the crisis of our own time.

    Question(s):

    1) Should the material error of St. Vincent Ferrer when naming Benedict XIII in the Canon of the Mass as Pope be equated with naming Leo XIV in the Canon now?

    2) How were the papal claimants during the Western Schism essentially DIFFERENT than the post Vatican II claimants?

    Claim(s):

    I do not think any of 3 papal claimants during the Western Schism were public, manifest, heretics.
    (I am open to being corrected on that if credible evidence of heresy can be produced).

    I believe that the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresies.
    (Which, in essence, is what differentiates the Western Schism from the current crisis - concerning the above questions.)

    I believe that If Benedict had been a manifest public heretic, Vincent would not have named him in the Canon of the Mass.

    Therefore St. Vincent naming antipope Benedict XIII in the Canon of Mass was only a material error and not a sacrilegious act because he and many others were only in material error about who the actual Pope was.

    Hence, when evaluating which action one should take regarding holding communion with heretical popes the actions of St. Vincent et. nal. should not be equated in this matter.

    Annex:
    If you do not believe the post-Vatican II claimants are manifest public heretics, then none of the above is relevant to you.
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    Online JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 10:21:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Yesterday at 10:15:17 AM
    There are certainly many things one can learn from the Western Schism and compare some such actions of Catholics during that crisis to the crisis of our own time.

    Question(s):

    1) Should the material error of St. Vincent Ferrer when naming Benedict XIII in the Canon of the Mass as Pope be equated with naming Leo XIV in the Canon now?

    2) How were the papal claimants during the Western Schism essentially DIFFERENT than the post Vatican II claimants?

    Claim(s):

    I do not think any of 3 papal claimants during the Western Schism were public, manifest, heretics.
    (I am open to being corrected on that if credible evidence of heresy can be produced).

    I believe that the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresies.
    (Which, in essence, is what differentiates the Western Schism from the current crisis - concerning the above questions.)

    I believe that If Benedict had been a manifest public heretic, Vincent would not have named him in the Canon of the Mass.

    Therefore St. Vincent naming antipope Benedict XIII in the Canon of Mass was only a material error and not a sacrilegious act because he and many others were only in material error about who the actual Pope was.

    Hence, when evaluating which action one should take regarding holding communion with heretical popes the actions of St. Vincent et. nal. should not be equated in this matter.

    Annex:
    If you do not believe the post-Vatican II claimants are manifest public heretics, then none of the above is relevant to you.
    “When Pope Honorius was condemned, he was condemned as Pope. And yet, the Council of Constantinople – I believe it was Pope Leo II, although I’m not sure - condemned Pope Honorius for favoring heresy. He didn’t say “he favored heresy, so he was no longer the Pope.” No. And neither did he say "since he was the pope, you had to obey him and accept what he said.” No, because he condemned him! So what did [Catholics] have to do then? Well, one had to admit that Pope Honorius was the Pope, but one did not have to follow him because he favoured heresy!  Isn't that the conclusion then? That seems to me the normal conclusion. Well, we're in that situation. One day these popes will be condemned by their successors. One day the truth will return.”

    (Archbishop Lefebvre, Conference on Sedevacantism and Liberalism, Econe, 1984)
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 10:47:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: JeanBaptistedeCouetus on Yesterday at 10:21:38 AM
    “When Pope Honorius was condemned, he was condemned as Pope. And yet, the Council of Constantinople – I believe it was Pope Leo II, although I’m not sure - condemned Pope Honorius for favoring heresy. He didn’t say “he favored heresy, so he was no longer the Pope.” No. And neither did he say "since he was the pope, you had to obey him and accept what he said.” No, because he condemned him! So what did [Catholics] have to do then? Well, one had to admit that Pope Honorius was the Pope, but one did not have to follow him because he favoured heresy!  Isn't that the conclusion then? That seems to me the normal conclusion. Well, we're in that situation. One day these popes will be condemned by their successors. One day the truth will return.”

    (Archbishop Lefebvre, Conference on Sedevacantism and Liberalism, Econe, 1984)


    I will go with St. Robert's assessment of Pope Honorius over that of +Lefebvre's.
    In fact, it was mainly Protestants that accused him of heresy, while Catholic authors generally defended him from this charge.

    Also, notice how it is citing CathInfo as a source! Maybe Matthew doesn't need to make a "Catholic AI" after all! :laugh1:

    AI sources aside, St. Robert's position and many others on Honorius is well docuмented.

    There is no comparison to the hypothesis of what to do in the case of manifest, public heretical Pope between Honorius and the post-Vatican II claimants.
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    Online JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 11:05:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Yesterday at 10:47:17 AM


    I will go with St. Robert's assessment of Pope Honorius over that of +Lefebvre's.
    In fact, it was mainly Protestants that accused him of heresy, while Catholic authors generally defended him from this charge.

    Also, notice how it is citing CathInfo as a source! Maybe Matthew doesn't need to make a "Catholic AI" after all! :laugh1:

    AI sources aside, St. Robert's position and many others on Honorius is well docuмented.

    There is no comparison to the hypothesis of what to do in the case of manifest, public heretical Pope between Honorius and the post-Vatican II claimants.
    “... the defenders of tradition are divided. Some say that the Decrees of Rome, signed or carried out by the Pope, are so bad that the Pope cannot be a legitimate Pope, he is a usurper. There is therefore no Pope, the See is vacant. Others affirm that the Pope cannot sign decrees which are destructive of the Faith and therefore these decrees are acceptable and one must submit to them. The Society [of St. Pius X] does not accept one or the other of these two solutions, but supported by the history of the Church and the doctrine of theologians, thinks that the Pope can favorize the ruin of the Church by choosing bad collaborators and allowing them to act, by signing decrees which do not engage his infallibility, sometimes even by his own admission, which cause considerable harm to the Church. Nothing is more dangerous to the Church than liberal Popes who are in a continual state of incoherence.  On the other hand, we think that God can allow the Church to be afflicted with this misfortune. Consequently we pray for the Pope but we refuse to follow him in his folly in regard to religious liberty, ecuмenism, socialism and the application of reforms which are ruinous for the Church. Our apparent disobedience is true obedience to the Church and the Pope as successor of Peter in the measure that he continues to maintain Tradition.”
    (Principles and Directives - 1982 General Chapter)
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 11:29:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: JeanBaptistedeCouetus on Yesterday at 11:05:28 AM
    (Principles and Directives - 1982 General Chapter)
    You certainly may choose to keep quoting +Lefebrve as if he was you infallible rule of faith who holds the answer to every issue with this crisis.

    But you have not addressed the main claims of the OP in any substantial way.

    To be fair, I suppose it could be taken that you do NOT hold that either the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresy and/or the post-Vatican II putative popes have committed manifest public heresy.

    In such a case as I stated above in the Annex, the whole OP would be irrelevant to you, because the issue for you is not that official heresy is coming from the "popes" manifestly and publicly, rather they are just "in error" and "hurting the Church", "leading bad", etc. In such a case if true, then that would demolish my entire argument.

    So if that is what you are arguing then there is nothing more to be said between us on this topic.

    But, if you do agree that the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresy and the post-Vatican II claimants are manifest public heretics then you have "skin in the game".
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    Online JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 06:32:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Yesterday at 11:29:41 AM
    You certainly may choose to keep quoting +Lefebrve as if he was you infallible rule of faith who holds the answer to every issue with this crisis.

    But you have not addressed the main claims of the OP in any substantial way.

    To be fair, I suppose it could be taken that you do NOT hold that either the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresy and/or the post-Vatican II putative popes have committed manifest public heresy.

    In such a case as I stated above in the Annex, the whole OP would be irrelevant to you, because the issue for you is not that official heresy is coming from the "popes" manifestly and publicly, rather they are just "in error" and "hurting the Church", "leading bad", etc. In such a case if true, then that would demolish my entire argument.

    So if that is what you are arguing then there is nothing more to be said between us on this topic.

    But, if you do agree that the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresy and the post-Vatican II claimants are manifest public heretics then you have "skin in the game".
    +Archbishop Lefebvre fits both the “bishop dressed in white” of Sister Lucia and the holy prelate of Our Lady of Good Success. That’s why I take every word he says seriously.

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    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #6 on: Today at 06:48:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: JeanBaptistedeCouetus on Yesterday at 06:32:21 PM
    +Archbishop Lefebvre fits both the “bishop dressed in white” of Sister Lucia and the holy prelate of Our Lady of Good Success. That’s why I take every word he says seriously.

    He is not the Holy Prelate prophesied by Our Lady of Good Success.  The Holy Prelate will return the Convent of the Conceptionist nuns in Quito, Ecuador to the jurisdiction of the Franciscan Order.  That has not happened yet.

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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 07:05:53 AM »
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    • If you have not read the docuмent "Gaudium es Spes"  please do so right now.  It is the most obvious docuмent that shows Vatican 2 changed the direction of Rome, from a God centered religion to a man-centered religion.  This is the docuмent that keeps me from joining back with Rome.
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Online Michaelknoxville

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 08:02:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Yesterday at 11:29:41 AM
    You certainly may choose to keep quoting +Lefebrve as if he was you infallible rule of faith who holds the answer to every issue with this crisis.

    But you have not addressed the main claims of the OP in any substantial way.

    To be fair, I suppose it could be taken that you do NOT hold that either the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresy and/or the post-Vatican II putative popes have committed manifest public heresy.

    In such a case as I stated above in the Annex, the whole OP would be irrelevant to you, because the issue for you is not that official heresy is coming from the "popes" manifestly and publicly, rather they are just "in error" and "hurting the Church", "leading bad", etc. In such a case if true, then that would demolish my entire argument.

    So if that is what you are arguing then there is nothing more to be said between us on this topic.

    But, if you do agree that the docuмents of Vatican II contain heresy and the post-Vatican II claimants are manifest public heretics then you have "skin in the game".
    Pardon my ignorance I’m not well versed on the western schism but to what standard are you holding these popes if the church did not still contain the fullness of truth. By what other church are you comparing them to? 
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 08:26:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Michaelknoxville on Today at 08:02:15 AM
    Pardon my ignorance I’m not well versed on the western schism but to what standard are you holding these popes if the church did not still contain the fullness of truth. By what other church are you comparing them to?
    Do you believe that Vatican II contains heresy officially in its docuмents?

    Do you believe that Prevost is a manifest, public heretics?
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    Online Michaelknoxville

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #10 on: Today at 08:47:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Today at 08:26:09 AM
    Do you believe that Vatican II contains heresy officially in its docuмents?

    Do you believe that Prevost is a manifest, public heretics?
    1 not blatantly but subversively. The fruits of the outcome prove it. Loose language was used purposefully to allow for infiltration. An appeasement to the liberals using Catholic truths against us. 
    2. Yes. Peter denied Christ 3 times and still chose him as the human face of the church. As to not get our expectations of man too high.
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    Online JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #11 on: Today at 08:50:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Today at 08:26:09 AM
    Do you believe that Vatican II contains heresy officially in its docuмents?

    Do you believe that Prevost is a manifest, public heretics?
      “So they keep this sense of faith, the sense that Providence gives to the good faithful and to today’s good priests,
    [this sense] to keep the faith, to stay put, to keep their attachment to Rome as well and to remain faithful to the apostolicity, to the visibility of the Church, which are essential things, even if they do not follow the Popes when they favour heresy, as Pope Honorius did. He's been convicted. Those who would have followed Pope Honorius at that time would have been mistaken since he was condemned afterwards. So then, I believe that we would be misled in actually following the Popes in what they are doing... but they will probably also one day be condemned by the ecclesiastical authority.” [/list]
      —Archbishop Lefebvre, Conference on Sedevacantism and Liberalism, Econe, 1984

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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: "Popes" of the Western Schism same as the "Popes" of Vatican II?
    « Reply #12 on: Today at 08:51:27 AM »
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    • So, it's quite perplexing that almost no Trads actually understand the root cause fundamental error behind all of Vatican II.  That's because they're so busy hating on Father Feeney to notice the obvious.  Karl Rahner actually pointed it out, and he would know, since he was one of the agitators behind it.

    For hundreds of years they had been eroding EENS dogma to set this entire thing up.  Rahner says he was surprised that the conservative Fathers made not a single peep about what he rightly identified as THE single most revolutionary aspect of Vatican II, what he euphemistically referred to as the "increasing hope of salvation for those outside the Church".

    Lots of Trads, SVs especially ... when asked about the heresies in Vatican II ... invariably respond first with "the heretical ecclesiology", where there's a Church of Christ that includes non-Catholics, etc.

    Indeed ... they're quite right.

    Problem is that 99% of them hold the exact same ecclesiology themselves.  I got banned on X by "Novus Ordo Watch" (too busy docuмenting each clown Mass that happens) merely for pointing this out.  Never a refutation.  Not once.  Only one individual has even attempted one, and it failed (by his own admission).

    MAJOR:  There's no salvation outside the Church.  DOGMA
    MINOR:  Heretics, schismatics, infidels (Hindus in Tibet and the like, Muslims, Jews) ... they can all be saved in some mysterious invincible ignorancy way.
    CONCLUSION:  Heretics, schismatics, infidels ... they can all be IN the Church, somehow.

    That's as plain as the nose on your face.  Since you can't be saved if you're not in the Church, then if you can be saved, you must be in the Church.  Logic 101.  There's no refutation for this.

    So, then, what does that do to "the Church"?  Well, the Church then includes no only Catholics, but can include all these others types these Trad thought leaders claim can be saved (and if you don't agree they'll refuse the Sacraments to you).

    Now you have a "Church" that includes Catholics and all kinds of other people invisibly glommed onto it and in it somehow.  Hmmm.  Sounds just like a Church that has its subsistent core in the visible Catholic Church but can (somehow, invisibly) include others.

    Vatican II ecclesiology in a nutshell, and yet 99% of Trads hold the same ecclesiology.
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