Author Topic: "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership (Read 13784 times)

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #120 on:** January 20, 2016, 10:41:21 PM »

McCork, it's not a contradiction.

A heretic is a catholic who once had the faith but has rejected part or all of it.

A protestant can be baptized validly, but never believe in Mary, or the Popes' authority, etc.

If you never had the Faith, and you're not baptized, then you are neither - you are a pagan.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #121 on:** January 20, 2016, 10:47:01 PM »

Desmond,

I'll quote from Trent again. It mentions nothing about forceful contrition. It's just saying that, normally, a priest cannot forgive excommunicants their sins, because this is up to the Church authorities to do so. BUT, IN DANGER OF DEATH, a normal priest is allowed, and encouraged, to nudge the penitent to contrition and confession. This is an extreme merciful act by the Church towards heretics, so that they may be saved!

As you point out, if the penitent isn't contrite, there's no forgiveness, but this is obvious...

Quote

Nevertheless, for fear lest any may perish on this account, it has always been very piously observed in the said Church of God, that there be no reservation at the point of death, and that therefore all priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever: and as, save at that point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases, let this alone be their endeavour, to persuade penitents to repair to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution

My translation:
"Nevertheless, for fear that anyone should go to hell, it has always been believed in the Church, so that there is no doubt at the point of death, that therefore all priests may absolve ALL penitents from EVERY KIND of sin or censures whatever (including excommunication): And as, except at the point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases (i.e. excommunication cases), let this alone be their mission, to persuade penitients to repair (i.e. confess) to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution."

Desmond · « **Reply #122 on:** January 21, 2016, 10:01:11 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

It coincides with the sacrament certainly, because one cannot be Catholic without baptism, but I do not see how baptism in and of itself makes one (an adult) a Catholic. You must have both, baptism and the Catholic faith. Even in the Creed, confessing one baptism for the remission of sins is only one of the things we Catholics must believe.

But what does it even mean to be a Catholic? One is or is not member of the Church.
This is a purely metaphysical, ultimately unknowable, quality.
What we know, is that the Church Militant is composed of sinners and saints, bad and wicked, not of heretics, schismatics and apostates.

Catechism of Trent:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Members Of The Church Militant

The Church militant is composed of two classes of persons, the good and the bad, both professing the same faith and partaking of the same Sacraments, yet differing in their manner of life and morality.

The good are those who are linked together not only by the profession of the same faith, and the participation of the same Sacraments, but also by the spirit of grace and the bond of charity. Of these St. Paul says: The Lord knoweth who are his. Who they are that compose this class we also may remotely conjecture, but we can by no means pronounce with certainty. Hence Christ the Saviour does not speak of this portion of His Church when He refers us to the Church and commands us to hear and to obey her. As this part of the Church is unknown, how could we ascertain with certainty whose decision to recur to, whose authority to obey?

The Church, therefore, as the Scriptures and the writings of the Saints testify, includes within her fold the good and the bad; and it was in this sense that St. Paul spoke of one body and one spirit. Thus understood, the Church is known and is compared to a city built on a mountain, and visible from every side. As all must yield obedience to her authority, it is necessary that she maybe known by all.

That the Church is composed of the good and the bad we learn from many parables contained in the Gospel. Thus, the kingdom of heaven, that is, the Church militant, is compared to a net cast into the sea, to a field in which tares were sown with the good grain, to a threshing floor on which the grain is mixed up with the chaff, and also to ten virgins, some of whom were wise, and some foolish. And long before, we trace a figure and resemblance of this Church in the ark of Noah, which contained not only clean, but also unclean animals.

But although the Catholic faith uniformly and truly teaches that the good and the bad belong to the Church, yet the same faith declares that the condition of both is very different. The wicked are contained in the Church, as the chaff is mingled with the grain on the threshing floor, or as dead members sometimes remain attached to a living body.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote

If we fall into heresy or apostasy or etc. then we commit mortal sin, if we die in that state then we go to hell, Catholic or not, it makes no difference - well, if there is a difference, we should expect that our suffering will be greater than non-Catholics.

True, but they are different categories.
Someone outside cannot possibly be saved.
Someone inside, will be judged for his sins.

Quote

But *for Catholics*, no matter what their sin, in an emergency it does not matter what offense we're guilty of, we can still be absolved in the sacrament of penance - which is something only Catholics can do.

Provided we have good will and are genuinely penitent that is... yes?

Quote

So when the issue confuses, remember the fundamental teaching that no matter what our heresy, excom, mortal sin, etc., when in danger of death, we always can still go to confession, something non-Catholics cannot do. One reason that many heretics, schismatics, etc. do not take advantage of this, is likely because as they lived, so they shall die - in their sins.

If I am wrong, please tell me where I erred.

The bolded part is very important, especially in the context of the following comment:

Desmond · « **Reply #123 on:** January 21, 2016, 10:07:14 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

As far as I am concerned, as far as the Church is concerned, every time anyone walks into the confessional, they are a sincere penitent, seeking forgiveness for their sins - or they commit additional sin of sacrilege.

If you choose to think that sinners go to confession for some other reason than to get their sins forgiven, then I do not know how to answer that other than to say, that is not Catholic thinking.

Exactly. The Church presumes they are honestly seeking redemption.

Similarly, the Church presumes the "fallen away" Catholics, heretics, schismatics, apostates are genuinely seeking to abjure their errors in addition to their sins, or, their sins of heresy, schism, apostasy included, so to speak, when permitted to partake in the Sacrament of Penance.

The Church (or priest, or whomever) cannot know if they are or not, in both cases, hence why it is permissible (considered generally licit) for both categories of men.

That does not mean, that already before abjuration+penance, (and if they fail to do so honestly etc) they are already reconciled Catholics (actual members) just like in the case of a Catholic member sinner, he is already in the state of grace/free from sin.

Can you see this?

Desmond · « **Reply #124 on:** January 21, 2016, 10:12:20 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

McCork, it's not a contradiction.

A heretic is a catholic who once had the faith but has rejected part or all of it.

A protestant can be baptized validly, but never believe in Mary, or the Popes' authority, etc.

If you never had the Faith, and you're not baptized, then you are neither - you are a pagan.

So Pax, Protestants (provided they never were Catholics) are NOT Heretics?

This is what the CounterChurch teaches, that because they never rejected something they never had to begin with, hey cannot be considered heretics, unlike their predecessors condemned at Trent.