Author Topic: "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership (Read 13803 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #95 on:** January 19, 2016, 04:09:53 PM »

Quote from: Desmond

Quote from: Stubborn

I am not arguing anything any more - just read the bolded and believe it as it is written without confusing it by adding all your provisos and exceptions.

I suggest you might need to read it a few hundred times if you need to - or till you believe it.

Have you lost it completely?

The Sacrament's matter is contrition, confession, satisfaction.
There can be no remission of the sin of Heresy without the Penitent recognising it and abjuring it.

What you are describing is the priest forcefully removing the sin(s) from the penitent, without the person's participation.

I am not describing that at all, in fact I'm not describing anything, Trent is. It is the Church teaching you that in danger of death; "all priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever" - to which YOU spitefully add; "Have you lost it completely? The Sacrament's matter is contrition, confession, satisfaction. There can be no remission of the sin of Heresy without the Penitent recognising it and abjuring it"

Again, in danger of death, there is no sin or censure that cannot be absolved by a priest. Try very hard to accept that teaching of the Catholic Church without concerning yourself about the 'certain insincerity' of the penitent before they die.

We are not talking about salvation via NSAA aka a BOD here you know, we are talking about a dying PENITENT, receiving the sacrament of penance, perhaps Communion and extreme unction as well.

Stubborn · « **Reply #96 on:** January 19, 2016, 04:13:59 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

Desmond,
If someone quotes the Council of Trent, and it doesn't make sense to you, your first reaction to the poster should NOT be: "Are you crazy?". Your first reaction should be "Ok, this is a council of the Church. Why do 'I' not understand what was written?"

Let me translate this quote. It says NOTHING about forceful contrition.

Quote
Nevertheless, for fear lest any may perish on this account, it has always been very piously observed in the said Church of God, that there be no reservation at the point of death, and that therefore all priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever: and as, save at that point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases, let this alone be their endeavour, to persuade penitents to repair to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution

"Nevertheless, for fear that anyone should go to hell, it has always been believed in the Church, so that there is no doubt at the point of death, that therefore all priests may absolve ALL penitents from EVERY KIND of sin or censures whatever (including excommunication): And as, except at the point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases (i.e. excommunication cases), let this alone be their mission, to persuade penitients to repair (i.e. confess) to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution."

Thank you, I simply cannot understand his confusion in this matter.

Desmond · « **Reply #97 on:** January 19, 2016, 04:28:56 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

Quote
semantical confusion is only exploited, by proponents to entrap people in the error.

What error? If we say they are still 'members' of the Church, with a small 'm', what problems does this cause? We're not saying they're going to heaven, just because they're baptised.

You seem to be a die hard optimist (if honest about your position).

Just ask Stubborn what he actually means, both about membership and Penance for heretics.

Ask him also about OCAC's ecclesiology.

Stubborn · « **Reply #98 on:** January 19, 2016, 05:01:55 PM »

Quote from: Desmond

Quote from: Pax Vobis
Quote
semantical confusion is only exploited, by proponents to entrap people in the error.

What error? If we say they are still 'members' of the Church, with a small 'm', what problems does this cause? We're not saying they're going to heaven, just because they're baptised.

You seem to be a die hard optimist (if honest about your position).

Just ask Stubborn what he actually means, both about membership and Penance for heretics.

Ask him also about OCAC's ecclesiology.

OCAC's ecclesiology? It's posted on the first page of this thread - and don't forget, Pax Vobis is the only one who answered them. You just continue to ignore them completely.

Nadir · « **Reply #99 on:** January 19, 2016, 06:50:08 PM »

Pax Vobis and Stubborn, you have both been amazingly patient and persistent. I have come to the conclusion that McCork is right when he says, on another thread, that "something is fishy" http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=39563&min=25&num=5