Author Topic: "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership (Read 13846 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #80 on:** January 19, 2016, 12:43:52 PM »

Yes, as long as I wanted to confuse the ever lovin' heck out of an otherwise simple question, I agree, that's the terminology to use alright.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #81 on:** January 19, 2016, 12:56:16 PM »

Desmond, a heretic can go to confession. If they can't, how else can they come back into the church?

Now they can't just wake up and decide one day to "re convert" after "just"
Going to confession. There's a process. They have to formally recant their heresies and THEN they go to confession. But confession is required and necessary.

Also, we must distinguish between what "Catholic" means. When saints say that a heretic is no longer Catholic, they are speaking of their Faith; that they no longer believe as a Catholic does.

When I say that I believe that OCAC, I'm not talking about what they believe (I know that can change), I'm talking about the potential to be a Catholic again, contrasting this to a pagan who never had the Faith. A Catholic, however fallen away, is still connected with the Church in the sense that they know what to believe and it only takes contrition/confession to come back. A pagan can't convert in 5min; they would have to go through classes and learn the faith.

Desmond · « **Reply #82 on:** January 19, 2016, 02:10:04 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

Desmond, a heretic can go to confession. If they can't, how else can they come back into the church?

I'm not making that claim. Stubborn is.
He says that whosoever can validly/licitly go to confession has to be Catholic (or, only a Catholic could be validly/licitly go to confession).

He actually uses this to attempt to demonstrate that all excommunicated people (at the very least) are still Catholic (or members of the Church), as per Canon Law, 1983, Can.1335, censured prelates can licitly administer the Sacraments if a faithful is in danger of death.

And latae sententiae prelates (not officially/formally censured then) can do so whenever a faithful asks for them:

Quote

Can. 1335 If a censure prohibits the celebration of sacraments or sacramentals or the placing of an act of governance, the prohibition is suspended whenever it is necessary to care for the faithful in danger of death. If a latae sententiae censure has not been declared, the prohibition is also suspended whenever a member of the faithful requests a sacrament or sacramental or an act of governance; a person is permitted to request this for any just cause.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #83 on:** January 19, 2016, 02:25:41 PM »

Ok, so why don't you agree?

Desmond · « **Reply #84 on:** January 19, 2016, 02:49:56 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

Ok, so why don't you agree?

Because we know heretics, schismatics, apostates (according to innumerable Papal pronouncements), and also excommunicati (according to at least the Catechism of Trent), are not members of the Church.

We know that the sin of Heresy separates one from the Church.

We know the Church to be a Body, comprised of members.

We know that outside of the Church there is absolutely no Salvation.

We know that to be a member Faith, whole and inviolate, is necessary.

We know, Faith is necessary for Salvation.

So, he cannot possibly be correct, regarding both claims:

-excommunicati, including heretics are still members of the Church

-excommunicati, including heretics, if absolved, are saved

For starters.

And the correct interpretation of the Canonical provision has to be one in line with the truths above.
In fact, I advanced several in the course of the thread.