Author Topic: "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership (Read 13840 times)

Desmond · « **Reply #75 on:** January 19, 2016, 11:29:07 AM »

Stubborn,

if you want to say that, we ought to presume, all are Catholic (in the sense of holding the Faith), including all excommunicati, because we can't possibly know, or read, their inner status, then I would agree.

If you want to, again, exploit the canonical provision from 20th century Code of Canon Law of the Latin Rite, as to demonstrate, that ALL validly baptised, with no qualification, are Catholic and members of the Church..

Or, you want to limit that to Excommunicati, even for the crime of Heresy, or those with the sin of Heresy on their soul,

then, we cannot agree.

As we know it is not the case.

Stubborn · « **Reply #76 on:** January 19, 2016, 11:59:58 AM »

Quote from: Desmond

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Desmond

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Answer: Catholic.

Why couldn't he be a heretic?

Why?
Because the Church teaches that in an emergency, the excom can have their sins absolved in the sacrament of penance, can then receive Communion and extreme unction - that's why. You can make all the exceptions you want, but those are exceptions you make, not the Church.

If you cannot accept that teaching, so be it, but that will not change what the Church teaches.

If the excom is not Catholic, then the excom cannot even think about going to confession - even in an emergency.

Are you serious? I am honestly asking.

The Church presumes the person going into confession is not a heretic.

Oh ye of little faith, the Church teaches that in an emergency, an excom can go to confession. If there is any presumption on the part of the Church, it is that the excom seeks forgiveness - but you say the presumption is that the person is not a heretic - where that came from no one knows.
Why are you consistently trying to validate what the Church is thinking instead of accepting what the Church teaches?

Stubborn · « **Reply #77 on:** January 19, 2016, 12:02:50 PM »

Quote from: Bellator Dei

Once a Catholic, always a Catholic and the effect of heresy on membership....

Quote from: Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi
For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.

The OCAC belief stems from a misunderstanding of the baptismal character. Indeed, the character imprinted on the soul through the Sacrament of Baptism is indelible. However, those who have been baptized and reject the Catholic Faith, either by heresy, schism, or apostasy are cut off, severed from the Body of the Church, and are no longer Catholic.

Quote from: Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum
St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. "No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and,if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic". (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88).

Saint Robert Bellarmine does an excellent job, citing Saint Thomas, to teach about the baptismal character and how it relates to membership in the Catholic Church.

Quote from: Saint Robert Bellarmine
...in the first place, if the heretic remained, "in actu", united to the Church in virtue of the character, he would never be able to be cut or separated from her "in actu", for the character is indelible. But there is no one who denies that some people may be separated "in actu" from the Church. Therefore, the character does not make the heretic be "in actu" in the Church, but is only a sign that he was in the Church and that he must return to her. Analogously, when a sheep wanders lost in the mountains, the mark impressed on it does not make it be in the fold, but indicates from which fold it had fled and to which fold it ought to be brought back. This truth has a confirmation in St. Thomas who says (Summ. Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3) that those who do not have the faith are not united "in actu" to Christ, but only potentially - and St. Thomas here refers to the internal union, and not to the external which is produced by the confession of faith and visible signs. Therefore, as the character is something internal, and not external, according to St. Thomas the character alone does not unite a man, "in actu," to Christ.

This is all fine and good but What religion is the excom penitent who, in an emergency, can enter the confessional and get their sins absolved - and if they died right after absolution, would be counted among the faithful departed?

Desmond · « **Reply #78 on:** January 19, 2016, 12:21:30 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Oh ye of little faith, the Church teaches that in an emergency, an excom can go to confession. If there is any presumption on the part of the Church, it is that the excom seeks forgiveness

That too of course.

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- but you say the presumption is that the person is not a heretic - where that came from no one knows.

It comes from simple logic.

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A heretic is not Catholic. (de fide, would you agree?)

As you keep on harping, only a Catholic can be validly (actually licitly) be confessed. (according to you and apparently, Canon Law)

Therefore, it is presumed (if not, deduced outright) that the person is not a heretic, or at least is willing to abjure his heresies.

Desmond · « **Reply #79 on:** January 19, 2016, 12:25:39 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

This is all fine and good but What religion is the excom penitent who, in an emergency, can enter the confessional and get their sins absolved - and if they died right after absolution, would be counted among the faithful departed?

This is lacking as far as terminology goes. It should say:

Quote

This is all fine and good but What Church membership status has the excom penitent who, in an emergency, can licitly and not just validly, enter the confessional and get their sins absolved licitly, and not just validly, - and if they died right after absolution, might be counted among the faithful departed?