Author Topic: "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership (Read 13847 times)

Desmond · « **Reply #60 on:** January 18, 2016, 07:51:47 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

I don't either but I wish he would start another thread on it. Prots were never Catholic to begin with so they're missing the first part; "once Catholic..."

Shocking.

It is rather simple, since OCAC postulates that membership is acquired with Baptism, and cannot be lost under any circuмstance, then Protestants (if validly baptised) are members of the Church, ergo Catholics.

I said this many times and asked you expressely to comment on it.
Is it correct or not?

Desmond · « **Reply #61 on:** January 18, 2016, 08:00:44 PM »

This is what the Church actually teaches (a provision from Canon Law of the Latin Rite, from the 20th century is not "Church teaching"):

From the Catechism of Trent,
Pars I
Caput X
Quaestio VIII

"Those Who Are Not Members Of The Church"

Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons.

Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments.

Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted.

It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised.

Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.

But with regard to the rest, however wicked and evil they may be, it is certain that they still belong to the Church: Of this the faithful are frequently to be reminded, in order to be convinced that, were even the lives of her ministers debased by crime, they are still within the Church, and therefore lose nothing of their power.
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So, it's either there are "various degrees of excoms", and can be understood as a penalty other than a status, or you have to say all excommunicati are non members and cut off from the Church (Body).

Stubborn · « **Reply #62 on:** January 19, 2016, 03:14:23 AM »

Quote from: Desmond

Quote from: Stubborn

Because the Church teaches in an emergency that an excom can go to confession or absolve sins, it is licit - always.

No. You know no bounds.

You did not even look up what Licit means in canon law.

It is licit in cases of emergency, due to:
'Necessity makes licit what is illicit.' and 'The highest law is the salvation of Souls'
principles.

I think you may have some issue with plain English. What is your first language?

You appear to actually admit "It is licit in cases of emergency", yet even though you said it, you don't believe it, or so it seems.

Why it is licit is because the Church teaches it, in other words, it is licit because the Church says it's licit. Not sure why you insist on bringing up licit - if anything should be clear, it should be that it is licit.

Stubborn · « **Reply #63 on:** January 19, 2016, 03:22:35 AM »

Quote from: Desmond

Quote from: Stubborn

I don't either but I wish he would start another thread on it. Prots were never Catholic to begin with so they're missing the first part; "once Catholic..."

Shocking.

It is rather simple, since OCAC postulates that membership is acquired with Baptism, and cannot be lost under any circuмstance, then Protestants (if validly baptised) are members of the Church, ergo Catholics.

I said this many times and asked you expressely to comment on it.
Is it correct or not?

Prots have nothing whatsoever to do with this subject. We are discussing a Catholic person or priest who is excommunicated, you will only further confuse yourself if you keep grasping at straws trying to compare prots and EO and etc. with Catholics - stick to the subject at hand to understand it and forget about prots for now. Go back to the questions I asked from the first page of this thread.

Stubborn · « **Reply #64 on:** January 19, 2016, 03:58:23 AM »

Quote from: Desmond

This is what the Church actually teaches (a provision from Canon Law of the Latin Rite, from the 20th century is not "Church teaching"):

From the Catechism of Trent,
Pars I
Caput X
Quaestio VIII

"Those Who Are Not Members Of The Church"

Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons.

Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments.

Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted.

It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised.

Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.

But with regard to the rest, however wicked and evil they may be, it is certain that they still belong to the Church: Of this the faithful are frequently to be reminded, in order to be convinced that, were even the lives of her ministers debased by crime, they are still within the Church, and therefore lose nothing of their power.
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So, it's either there are "various degrees of excoms", and can be understood as a penalty other than a status, or you have to say all excommunicati are non members and cut off from the Church (Body).

Do not mention various degrees of excom, the catechism did not mention any various degrees so leave it at that. As such, we have to say that all excommunicati are non members and cut off from the Church.

Infidels have never been Catholic. - check
Heretics and schismatics belong to her only as deserters. - check
Exoms are not members and are cut off from the Church. - check

Simple question, not a trick question........

What religion is the excom penitent who, in an emergency, can enter the confessional and get their sins absolved - and if they died right after absolution, would be counted among the faithful departed?