Author Topic: "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership (Read 13802 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #90 on:** January 19, 2016, 03:32:44 PM »

Quote from: Desmond

Quote from: Stubborn

Nevertheless, for fear lest any may perish on this account, it has always been very piously observed in the said Church of God, that there be no reservation at the point of death, and that therefore all priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever: and as, save at that point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases, let this alone be their endeavour, to persuade penitents to repair to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution

I do not know what you are now arguing with this, that a priest, in point of death of the penitent, can REMOVE/ABSOLVE the Heresy, which they continue to hold even after that nonetheless, from their Soul?

I am not arguing anything any more - just read the bolded and believe it as it is written without confusing it by adding all your provisos and exceptions.

I suggest you might need to read it a few hundred times if you need to - or till you believe it.

Desmond · « **Reply #91 on:** January 19, 2016, 03:42:37 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

I am not arguing anything any more - just read the bolded and believe it as it is written without confusing it by adding all your provisos and exceptions.

I suggest you might need to read it a few hundred times if you need to - or till you believe it.

Have you lost it completely?

The Sacrament's matter is contrition, confession, satisfaction.
There can be no remission of the sin of Heresy without the Penitent recognising it and abjuring it.

What you are describing is the priest forcefully removing the sin(s) from the penitent, without the person's participation.

Desmond · « **Reply #92 on:** January 19, 2016, 03:44:40 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

It's just a matter of semantics, really. Saying one is "always" a catholic is just another way of saying you can't reverse baptism.

For example, you meet 2 hindus on the street. 1 was born a hindu; the other is a fallen-away catholic. Both would say "I'm a hindu". Technically, only the pagan can say that. In reality, the former catholic isn't a hindu or a pagan, they are an apostate catholic.

Same with a heretic. All heretics are former catholics. All excommunicants are excommunicated catholics. All schismatics are separated catholics. So, really all these terms are implying that they are not 100% catholic.

Darkness isn't a color; it's the absence of light. Heresy, Schmism, and Excommunication aren't beliefs; they're the absence of 100% Catholic belief.

So, to say that these people are always Catholic is not to say they are inside the Church, but to just separate them from one who never was (i.e. a pagan), and who, though they have left, are still governed by the Church (whether they like it or not).

You'd think that, but no, OCAC says they are literally actually Catholic members, as again, membership coincides with the indelible mark of Baptism.
It's not semantics, semantical confusion is only exploited, by proponents to entrap people in the error.
Ask Stubborn.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #93 on:** January 19, 2016, 04:04:23 PM »

Desmond,
If someone quotes the Council of Trent, and it doesn't make sense to you, your first reaction to the poster should NOT be: "Are you crazy?". Your first reaction should be "Ok, this is a council of the Church. Why do 'I' not understand what was written?"

Let me translate this quote. It says NOTHING about forceful contrition.

Quote

Nevertheless, for fear lest any may perish on this account, it has always been very piously observed in the said Church of God, that there be no reservation at the point of death, and that therefore all priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever: and as, save at that point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases, let this alone be their endeavour, to persuade penitents to repair to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution

"Nevertheless, for fear that anyone should go to hell, it has always been believed in the Church, so that there is no doubt at the point of death, that therefore all priests may absolve ALL penitents from EVERY KIND of sin or censures whatever (including excommunication): And as, except at the point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases (i.e. excommunication cases), let this alone be their mission, to persuade penitients to repair (i.e. confess) to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution."

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #94 on:** January 19, 2016, 04:09:04 PM »

Quote

semantical confusion is only exploited, by proponents to entrap people in the error.

What error? If we say they are still 'members' of the Church, with a small 'm', what problems does this cause? We're not saying they're going to heaven, just because they're baptised.