Author Topic: "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership (Read 13835 times)

Desmond · « **Reply #15 on:** January 16, 2016, 03:35:10 PM »

Quote from: McCork

Quote from: Desmond
"Once Catholic always a Catholic", in its essence, is a thesis professing that:

Membership in the Church coincides with the indelible Mark of Baptism, and essentially the two coincide.

I know you are still learning Catholicism, but the mark of baptism only means that a heretic remains under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church, but it isn't even a controversy that heretics, such as the Lutherans, are outside the Church nevertheless. This is a fundamental.

Right, except, that's what OCAC postulates, and Stubborn and it seems, limited to the Baptism=Member aspect of the theory, even Pax Vobis seems to think.

I'm arguing that it isn't the case and heretics, schismatics and apostates are NOT members.

Desmond · « **Reply #16 on:** January 16, 2016, 03:43:04 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Desmond
Quote from: Stubborn

Well then why will you NOT answer the questions?

Because they are wrongly formulated, oversimplified, and designed on purpose to be confusing (as in.. confuse the issues) as Pax Vobis' answers show.

You are demonstrating what I have been saying for a while now, ie since the time Nado popped up here on the scene a year or so ago, now reincarnated as McCork, that whatever religion it is that he preaches, it is not Catholic.

Not at all, also I just realised you wrongly formulated (I mean, rightly, but wrongly in the pov of attempting to prove OCAC!) #4.

You should have said (even) a formally censored/excommunicated priest, that according to Can.1335/1983CIC can indeed validly administer Sacraments if asked by a lay person in danger of death

As of how they are formulated now, they amount to nothing, as leave open the possibility of formal sentences being necessary yet sufficient to "sever membership".

Is this not what you adhere to? That no matter what membership cannot be revoked? I am now confused.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #17 on:** January 16, 2016, 07:21:07 PM »

OK, so if a heretic, schematic aren't members of the church (does this include those excommunicated?) Then why aren't they re-baptised when they recant their errors? Honest question.

I think we must distinguish what membership means. Baptism is formal entry into the church; you are spiritually reborn. Now, we know that cant be undone, which is why its called an indelible mark.

But, in the case of Martin Luther...hes a confirmed heretic. Hes outside the church. But isn't he "outside" in a different way than an unbaptised pagan? There has to be a difference. If not, then all "outside" would have be re-baptised, which isn't the case.

Nadir · « **Reply #18 on:** January 16, 2016, 07:46:47 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

I don't think they have to be re-baptized, so how could they be outside of the Church?

Quote from: Pax Vobis

OK, so if a heretic, schematic aren't members of the church (does this include those excommunicated?) Then why aren't they re-baptised when they recant their errors? Honest question.

I think we must distinguish what membership means. Baptism is formal entry into the church; you are spiritually reborn. Now, we know that cant be undone, which is why its called an indelible mark.

But, in the case of Martin Luther...hes a confirmed heretic. Hes outside the church. But isn't he "outside" in a different way than an unbaptised pagan? There has to be a difference. If not, then all "outside" would have be re-baptised, which isn't the case.

We have to terribly cautious here with our language. Let us remember that there is no possibility for rebaptism. It simply doesn't and can't exist.

Luther, wherever he is, is still a priest. OaPAaP!

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #19 on:** January 16, 2016, 08:02:27 PM »

Quote from: A Commentary on Canon Law

Excommunication is a censure by which one is excluded from the communion of the faithful, with the consequences which are enumerated in the following canons, and which cannot be separated (c. 2257, §1). It is also called anathema, especially if it is inflicted with the solemnities described in the Roman Pontifical (c. 2257, §2).
Some excommunicated persons are vitandi, others tolerati (c. 2258, §1). No one is vitandus unless he has been excommunicated by name by the Holy See, and the excommunication has been publicly announced, and it is expressly stated in the decree or sentence that he is to be avoided, without prejudice to canon 2343, §1, 1° (c. 2258, §2). The canon cited declares anyone who lays violent hands on the Supreme Pontiff ipso facto vitandus.

An excommunicated person is forbidden licitly to consecrate or administer sacraments and sacramentals, except as follows (c. 2261, §1). Except as provided in §3, the faithful can for any just cause ask for sacraments or sacramentals of one who is excommunicated, especially if there is no one else to give them; and in such cases the excommunicated person so asked may administer them, and is not obliged to ask the reason for the request (c. 2261, §2). But from an excommunicated vitandus or one against whom there is a declaratory or condemnatory sentence, the faithful may only in danger of death ask for sacramental absolution according to canons 882, 2252, and also for other sacraments and sacramentals in case there is no one else to administer them (c. 2261, §3).

An excommunicated person who still holds an office to which ordinary jurisdiction is attached, acts illicitly but validly until a condemnatory or declaratory judgment has been passed upon him; thereafter he acts invalidly (c. 2264).
A person who is suspended from jurisdiction similarly, acts illicitly but validly before, and invalidly after a condemnatory or declaratory judgment. (c. 2284).

All apostates from the Christian faith, and all heretics and schismatics: (1) are ipso facto excommunicated; (2) if after due warning they fail to amend, they are to be deprived of any benefice, dignity, pension, office, or other position which they may have in the Church, they are to be declared infamous, and clerics after a reception of the warning are to be deposed; (3) if they have joined a non-Catholic sect or publicly adhered to it, they are ipso facto infamous, and clerics, in addition to being considered to have tacitly renounced any office they may hold, according to canon 188, 4°, are, if previous warning proves fruitless, to be degraded (c. 2314, §1). The abjuration [from crimes] is regarded as legally made when it is made before the Ordinary of the place or his delegate and at least two witnesses (c. 2314, §2).
One who is suspected of heresy, and who after warning fails to remove the cause of suspicion, shall be barred from legitimate acts, and if he is a cleric he shall moreover, after a repetition of the warning has proved fruitless, be suspended a divinis; if one who is suspected of heresy does not amend his life within six full months from the time when the penalty was incurred, he shall be considered a heretic and be subject to the penalties for heresy (c. 2315).
One who spontaneously and with full knowledge helps in any way in the propagation of heresy, or who co-operates in divinis with heretics contrary to the provision of canon 1258, is suspected of heresy (c. 2316).
Those who obstinately teach or defend, either publicly or privately, a doctrine which has been condemned, though not as formally heretical, by the Holy See or by a General Council, are to be excluded from the ministry of preaching the word of God or of hearing sacramental confessions, and from teaching in any capacity, in addition to any other penalties which the condemnatory sentence may inflict or which the Ordinary, after due warning, may deem necessary to repair the scandal (c. 2317).