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Author Topic: "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership  (Read 13839 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
"Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2016, 12:56:42 PM »
I'm a neutral party in this discussion but here are my answers.  Correct me if I'm off somewhere.

Quote
1) One who is ipso facto excommunicated (i.e. not formally, publicly excommunicated) for heresy, schism, apostate etc., is no longer a member of the Catholic Church, therefore not a Catholic.
Yes or No?


I would say they are still members of the Church because it's not a formal, public condemnation but a spiritual one (for lack of a better term).  If they recant their heresy before any formal condemnation, I don't think they have to be re-baptized, so how could they be outside of the Church?

Quote
2) Only Catholics are permitted to receive the sacrament of Penance (Confession).
Yes or No?


Yes.

Quote
3) Only a Catholic (priest or bishop etc.) in the sacrament of Penance can absolve the penitent.
Yes or No?


Yes.

Quote
4) In an emergency, an apostate, heretical, schismatic, ipso facto  excommunicated priest can both absolve and have his sins absolved - and lay people can have their sins absolved from the censured priest in the sacrament of penance.  
Yes or No?


Yes, for lay people, since the Church will supply jurisdiction to the excommunicated priest because salvation is the ultimate end of the Church.  As far as the excommunicated cleric receiving absolution, I don't know, but I would say 'yes', as, following the same logic, the Church wills all men to be saved and will allow absolution, in case of death.

Quote

5) Non-Catholics are not permitted to even approach or administer any of the sacraments, including the sacrament of penance?
Yes or No?


Yes.

I assume your logic is that if a non-public, non-formal excommunication DOES remit membership in the Church, then the Church's canon laws mentioning such excommunicated clerics, and their association with confession, do not makes sense.  Ergo, non-formal excommunication DOES NOT remit Church membership.  I agree.

Also, if membership was remitted, wouldn't Baptism have to be re-administered to excommunicants?  I've never heard that it has been.  Or maybe their desire for re-admittance is like BOD?  (ha ha, sorry, I couldn't resist).

Would ACTUAL, public excommunication remit membership?  Would such a cleric be able to provide confession to a layperson in an emergency?  I'd like to know this.

"Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2016, 01:33:28 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn


Well then why will you NOT answer the questions?


Because they are wrongly formulated, oversimplified, and designed on purpose to be confusing (as in.. confuse the issues) as Pax Vobis' answers show.



Quote
Why will no sede answer the questions?

I don't know why "sede" do not answer you, but I know why you keep bringing up Sedevacantism even when explicitly asked NOT TO more than once:
This OCAC is essential to your personal flavour of R&R aka personal rejection of the SV option.


Quote
They are simple "yes or no" questions, fundamental to the Catholic faith and every Catholic in elementary school SHOULD know.


Yeah, right.
Quote

Again, you saying it would not prove OCOC only means you are afraid to answer the questions for fear of being wrong.


No, it means I do not want to be a plaything nor an accomplice in propagating errors.
What I could do, if only I were more knowledgeable and patient, and optimist actually, is spending a good deal of time picking them apart one by one.

Quote
I do not fear being wrong, I will readily admit I am wrong when I am corrected, but for me, I need those questions answered or there is no sense in proceeding further as I will only keep reminding you that by avoiding answering those questions, you are afraid of being proven wrong by fundamental and elementary Catholic teaching - not by me.


 I'm sorry but I do not believe this even for a second. This is most probably just feigning simplicity and innocence as a rethorical artificium, as in the other thread.



Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
"Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2016, 02:51:32 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis
I'm a neutral party in this discussion but here are my answers.  Correct me if I'm off somewhere.

Quote
1) One who is ipso facto excommunicated (i.e. not formally, publicly excommunicated) for heresy, schism, apostate etc., is no longer a member of the Catholic Church, therefore not a Catholic.
Yes or No?


I would say they are still members of the Church because it's not a formal, public condemnation but a spiritual one (for lack of a better term).  If they recant their heresy before any formal condemnation, I don't think they have to be re-baptized, so how could they be outside of the Church?

Quote
2) Only Catholics are permitted to receive the sacrament of Penance (Confession).
Yes or No?


Yes.

Quote
3) Only a Catholic (priest or bishop etc.) in the sacrament of Penance can absolve the penitent.
Yes or No?


Yes.

Quote
4) In an emergency, an apostate, heretical, schismatic, ipso facto  excommunicated priest can both absolve and have his sins absolved - and lay people can have their sins absolved from the censured priest in the sacrament of penance.  
Yes or No?


Yes, for lay people, since the Church will supply jurisdiction to the excommunicated priest because salvation is the ultimate end of the Church.  As far as the excommunicated cleric receiving absolution, I don't know, but I would say 'yes', as, following the same logic, the Church wills all men to be saved and will allow absolution, in case of death.

Quote

5) Non-Catholics are not permitted to even approach or administer any of the sacraments, including the sacrament of penance?
Yes or No?


Yes.

I assume your logic is that if a non-public, non-formal excommunication DOES remit membership in the Church, then the Church's canon laws mentioning such excommunicated clerics, and their association with confession, do not makes sense.  Ergo, non-formal excommunication DOES NOT remit Church membership.  I agree.

Thank you for answering with clear answers to the clear questions and according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, which of course means that you answered all the questions correctly.



Quote from: Pax Vobis

Also, if membership was remitted, wouldn't Baptism have to be re-administered to excommunicants?  I've never heard that it has been.  Or maybe their desire for re-admittance is like BOD?  (ha ha, sorry, I couldn't resist).

Would ACTUAL, public excommunication remit membership?  Would such a cleric be able to provide confession to a layperson in an emergency?  I'd like to know this.

Remember, I underlined that the scenario was in an emergency, that is what this is scenario is all about. The Church teaches that things work a bit differently in an emergency than they do under "normal" circuмstances. So yes, even a formally excommunicated priest or bishop can validly absolve sins in an emergency.  

In normal circuмstances, it depends on the offense. If the person (priest or lay man) had been formally declared as excommunicated, then no, they can never be re-baptized, but like any baptized non-Catholic entering the Church, I think they are supposed to publicly (before a priest, bishop or etc.) abjure their heresies, then go to confession.


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
"Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2016, 03:00:53 PM »
Quote from: Desmond
Quote from: Stubborn


Well then why will you NOT answer the questions?


Because they are wrongly formulated, oversimplified, and designed on purpose to be confusing (as in.. confuse the issues) as Pax Vobis' answers show.


You are demonstrating what I have been saying for a while now, ie since the time Nado popped up here on the scene a year or so ago, now reincarnated as McCork, that whatever religion it is that he preaches, it is not Catholic.

Pax Vobis' answers were spot on according to the Catholic Church's teachings. Meaning he obviously and clearly understood the questions and his clear answers demonstrate as much, which in turn means that if you think the questions, or his answers are confused or otherwise incomprehensible, then, well, I'm not going to make that same conclusion as applies to McCork because I don't believe that is true at all with you, imo. All I can say is the questions are clear and the answers are fundamental and elementary Catholic teaching.  

"Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2016, 03:13:48 PM »
Quote from: Desmond
"Once Catholic always a Catholic", in its essence, is a thesis professing that:

Membership in the Church coincides with the indelible Mark of Baptism, and essentially the two coincide.


I know you are still learning Catholicism, but the mark of baptism only means that a heretic remains under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church, but it isn't even a controversy that heretics, such as the Lutherans, are outside the Church nevertheless. This is a fundamental.