Author Topic: "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership  (Read 6589 times)

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Offline Desmond

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"Once Catholic always a Catholic", in its essence, is a thesis professing that:

Membership in the Church coincides with the indelible Mark of Baptism, and essentially the two coincide.

Nothing can rescind this bond, no matter how grave a heresy is embraced, or even if one were to totally apostatise from the Faith.

Obviously, this idea incurs into direct contradictions from numerous doctrinal writings, and has the concept of "Ecclesia", from the common understanding,  mutate to a degree even greater than Vatican II's subsistit in.

Taken to its logical ramifications, it would have the Catholic Church comprised by all validly baptised individual alive in the world, including all heretics and schismatics, and even apostates, provided they were once validly baptised.

So, while the soul/Body erroneous dichotomy posits a visible Body encompassed and contained by a fumous "Soul" extending the bond to someone, outside it...

the OaCAaC or OCAC, has the Body itself contain a smaller entity which is the Actual Visible Church, apparently United via Unity of the Faith.

This is in the purest and simplest of forms. Now Stubborn, who is the one who tried to inject such an idea in another thread, can explain if my understanding is correct or not.

And if he or other proponents instead have a further discriminante, for example the membership being limited to fallen away Catholics, adding another "mark" to the "Indelible Mark of Baptism".

In such a case, would the Church be threefold in Her structure?

A core of practising Catholics proper, members outside the Core, and then all "Christians" validly baptised.

This assuming they not also adhere to the Soul doctrine, thereby having to include yet another extension, including also non baptised people in some kind of connection with the Church, allegedly.


This is very interesting, this kind of ecclesiology could be visualised as a City with various defensive walls.



What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance.

Offline TKGS

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"Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2016, 08:29:51 AM »
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  • All people who are validly baptized have an indelible mark on their souls and, if damned, will suffer greater torments in hell because they were given the supernatural gift of faith and rejected it.

    But the Catholic Church herself rejects the thesis above.  Members of the Church are not chained to her and have the free-will to reject her.  Those bonds can be repaired by abjuring error and through Confession, but a person who knowingly rejects the doctrines of the Catholic Church breaks the bonds of union with her.  He has rejected his baptism and he is no longer a Catholic.

    Note that many of the prelates of the Conciliar sect unequivocally state how the faith that they hold and teach differ from the traditional faith or the "old" faith of the Catholic Church.  They know their faith differs from what the Church taught in the ("unenlightened") past and they proudly declare their separation from that past.  They have broken their bonds with the Catholic Church.


    Offline sword of the Spirit

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    "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
    « Reply #2 on: January 16, 2016, 09:50:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: Desmond
    "Once Catholic always a Catholic", in its essence, is a thesis professing that:

    Membership in the Church coincides with the indelible Mark of Baptism, and essentially the two coincide.

    Nothing can rescind this bond, no matter how grave a heresy is embraced, or even if one were to totally apostatise from the Faith.

    Obviously, this idea incurs into direct contradictions from numerous doctrinal writings, and has the concept of "Ecclesia", from the common understanding,  mutate to a degree even greater than Vatican II's subsistit in.

    Taken to its logical ramifications, it would have the Catholic Church comprised by all validly baptised individual alive in the world, including all heretics and schismatics, and even apostates, provided they were once validly baptised.

    So, while the soul/Body erroneous dichotomy posits a visible Body encompassed and contained by a fumous "Soul" extending the bond to someone, outside it...  


    Those who preach this idea whether dead or alive should be considered most dangerous to souls.

    And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. Matt: 12-25

    The Conciliar Church which claims to be Catholic contains heretics, apostates, Jews....which on the outside claims unity(with their hugs and kisses), but is clearly DIVIDED against itself in issues of faith, morals, etc.... and most definitely will not stand! So this organization can not be the Catholic Church.

    A heretic is not Catholic anymore then an apostate is a Catholic anymore then a Jew is an invisible Catholic any more then a Muslim is a Catholic because they believe Allah (the devil in disguise) is the one true God and a rewarder, because that is what their conscience tells them, any more then Once a Catholic always a Catholic


    Offline Stubborn

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    "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
    « Reply #3 on: January 16, 2016, 10:00:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    All people who are validly baptized have an indelible mark on their souls and, if damned, will suffer greater torments in hell because they were given the supernatural gift of faith and rejected it.

    But the Catholic Church herself rejects the thesis above.  Members of the Church are not chained to her and have the free-will to reject her.  Those bonds can be repaired by abjuring error and through Confession, but a person who knowingly rejects the doctrines of the Catholic Church breaks the bonds of union with her.  He has rejected his baptism and he is no longer a Catholic.


    Some basic questions...........

    1) One who is ipso facto excommunicated (i.e. not formally, publicly excommunicated) for heresy, schism, apostate etc., is no longer a member of the Catholic Church, therefore not a Catholic.
    Yes or No?
     
    2) Only Catholics are permitted to receive the sacrament of Penance (Confession).
    Yes or No?

    3) Only a Catholic (priest or bishop etc.) in the sacrament of Penance can absolve the penitent.
    Yes or No?

    4) In an emergency, an apostate, heretical, schismatic, ipso facto  excommunicated priest can both absolve and have his sins absolved - and lay people can have their sins absolved from the censured priest in the sacrament of penance.  
    Yes or No?

    5) Non-Catholics are not permitted to even approach or administer any of the sacraments, including the sacrament of penance?
    Yes or No?
     

     
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline McCork

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    "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
    « Reply #4 on: January 16, 2016, 10:10:00 AM »
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  • Historical Synopsis of General Legislation and Commentary
    Author: Leo Arnold Jaeger, A.B., J.C.L.
    N.O.: Valentinus T. Schaaf, O.F.M., J.C.D.
    Imp.: Franciscus J. L. Beckman, S.T.D.
    Published: Washington, D.C., The Catholic University of America, 1932.

    http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015033864250;view=1up;seq=1



    Some relevant text from this book...

    pp.81-82
    Quote

       Resignation has been considered thus far from the aspect of express resignation.  It must be remembered that tacit resignation, which affects all ecclesiastical offices not excluding the episcopacy, may be a cause also of an episcopal see becoming vacant.15  Tacit resignation, or as it is sometimes called, equivalent resignation, is the result of certain explicitly determined facts, which, by a special disposition of law and of themselves,  without the formalities of presentation, acceptance or declaration, produce the same effect as express resignation.16  Canon 188 enumerates taxatively the facts which produce tacit resignation.  The only probable fact which might affect the episcopal office is that of public defection from the faith.17  This crime presupposes not an internal, or even external but occult act, but a public defection from the faith through formal heresy, or apostasy, with or without affiliation with another religious society.  Simple schism without heresy would not suffice to constitute tacit resignation.18  The public character of this crime must be understood in the light of canon 2197 n. I.  Hence, if a bishop were guilty of this violation and the fact were divulged to the greater part of the town or community, the crime would be public19 and the see ipso facto becomes vacant.  The jurisdiction of the vicar-general, furthermore, is immediately lost in this instance.20

        15 De Meester, Compendium, II, n. 788, footnote 3 (p. 228); Cocchi, Commentarium, II, 524; Prummer, Manuale Juris Canonici, p. 173; Klekotka, Diocesan Consultors, p. 161.
        16 Cf. Maroto, op. cit., I, n. 684 (pp. 809-10).
        17 Canon 188 n. 4.
        18 Blat, Commentarium, II, 125; Augustine, Commentary, II, 161; Vermeersch-Creusen, Epitome, I, n. 268 (p. 199); Ayrinhac, General Legislation, pp. 349-50.
        19 Ci. Vermeersch-Creusen, op. cit., III, n. 384 (p. 185); "Quia res facti est, in aestimatione boni viri esse debet."—D'Annibale, Summula Theologiae Moralis, I, n. 242, footnote 49.
        20 Canon 371.


    Offline Stubborn

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    "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
    « Reply #5 on: January 16, 2016, 10:18:11 AM »
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  • I don't expect you to answer the questions, but you may need to make the text a little larger next time so we can read them from the next room.
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Desmond

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    "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
    « Reply #6 on: January 16, 2016, 10:20:17 AM »
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  • Please people, a reminder:

    do not swerve the conversation towards Sedevacantism, as we can all readily see it would just become the usual verbal avalanche of confusion.

    Thanks in advance.


    The argument is exclusively: Once a Catholic Always a Catholic and Membership of the Church, relating to Anathemas and Heresy (at most).









    @Stubborn

    Even if your claims above were absolutely correct, and not contaminated by willfull conflation of different stati, it would no more demonstrate OCAC than the 1917 CIC's provision for burial of unbaptised catechumens  demonstrates BOD.

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #7 on: January 16, 2016, 10:33:00 AM »
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  • That reply does not answer even one of the questions.

    What is it with sede's not answering clear questions anyway? What are you afraid of?
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline Desmond

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    "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
    « Reply #8 on: January 16, 2016, 10:48:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    That reply does not answer even one of the questions.

    What is it with sede's not answering clear questions anyway? What are you afraid of?



    I did attempt to clear some of the confusion you WILLFULLY cast on the topic on the other thread regarding Ipso Facto Excommunications and the Synod of Pistoia/Auctorem Fidei, yet you REFUSE to correctly make the necessary qualifications, relying for you duplicitous ensnaring attempt in confusion regarding terms, canon law vs divine law, provisions vs stati, jurisdiction proper vs supplied and so on.

    But I did just answer you. With an hypothetical.

    ASSUMING your questions were correctly formulated and you received all your desired answers it would still not prove OCAC.

    What it is you like to do often when debating BOD? Quote infallible teachings to silence your opponents who instead rely on convoluted pseudo-proofs for their erroneous thesis.
    Now you're doing the same, only you're playing their part.



    PS: Your remark, off topic to begin with, about Sedevacantists, is unbecoming.
    Please, as I HAD JUST SAID RIGHT IN THE COMMENT YOU WERE RESPONDING TO, do not drag SV into this.

    Offline Stubborn

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    "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
    « Reply #9 on: January 16, 2016, 12:22:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Desmond
    Quote from: Stubborn
    That reply does not answer even one of the questions.

    What is it with sede's not answering clear questions anyway? What are you afraid of?



    I did attempt to clear some of the confusion you WILLFULLY cast on the topic on the other thread regarding Ipso Facto Excommunications and the Synod of Pistoia/Auctorem Fidei, yet you REFUSE to correctly make the necessary qualifications, relying for you duplicitous ensnaring attempt in confusion regarding terms, canon law vs divine law, provisions vs stati, jurisdiction proper vs supplied and so on.

    But I did just answer you. With an hypothetical.

    ASSUMING your questions were correctly formulated and you received all your desired answers it would still not prove OCAC.

    What it is you like to do often when debating BOD? Quote infallible teachings to silence your opponents who instead rely on convoluted pseudo-proofs for their erroneous thesis.
    Now you're doing the same, only you're playing their part.



    PS: Your remark, off topic to begin with, about Sedevacantists, is unbecoming.
    Please, as I HAD JUST SAID RIGHT IN THE COMMENT YOU WERE RESPONDING TO, do not drag SV into this.


    Well then why will you NOT answer the questions? Why will no sede answer the questions? They are simple "yes or no" questions, fundamental to the Catholic faith and every Catholic in elementary school SHOULD know.

    Again, you saying it would not prove OCOC only means you are afraid to answer the questions for fear of being wrong. I do not fear being wrong, I will readily admit I am wrong when I am corrected, but for me, I need those questions answered or there is no sense in proceeding further as I will only keep reminding you that by avoiding answering those questions, you are afraid of being proven wrong by fundamental and elementary Catholic teaching - not by me.

     
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Online Pax Vobis

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    "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
    « Reply #10 on: January 16, 2016, 12:56:42 PM »
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  • I'm a neutral party in this discussion but here are my answers.  Correct me if I'm off somewhere.

    Quote
    1) One who is ipso facto excommunicated (i.e. not formally, publicly excommunicated) for heresy, schism, apostate etc., is no longer a member of the Catholic Church, therefore not a Catholic.
    Yes or No?


    I would say they are still members of the Church because it's not a formal, public condemnation but a spiritual one (for lack of a better term).  If they recant their heresy before any formal condemnation, I don't think they have to be re-baptized, so how could they be outside of the Church?

    Quote
    2) Only Catholics are permitted to receive the sacrament of Penance (Confession).
    Yes or No?


    Yes.

    Quote
    3) Only a Catholic (priest or bishop etc.) in the sacrament of Penance can absolve the penitent.
    Yes or No?


    Yes.

    Quote
    4) In an emergency, an apostate, heretical, schismatic, ipso facto  excommunicated priest can both absolve and have his sins absolved - and lay people can have their sins absolved from the censured priest in the sacrament of penance.  
    Yes or No?


    Yes, for lay people, since the Church will supply jurisdiction to the excommunicated priest because salvation is the ultimate end of the Church.  As far as the excommunicated cleric receiving absolution, I don't know, but I would say 'yes', as, following the same logic, the Church wills all men to be saved and will allow absolution, in case of death.

    Quote

    5) Non-Catholics are not permitted to even approach or administer any of the sacraments, including the sacrament of penance?
    Yes or No?


    Yes.

    I assume your logic is that if a non-public, non-formal excommunication DOES remit membership in the Church, then the Church's canon laws mentioning such excommunicated clerics, and their association with confession, do not makes sense.  Ergo, non-formal excommunication DOES NOT remit Church membership.  I agree.

    Also, if membership was remitted, wouldn't Baptism have to be re-administered to excommunicants?  I've never heard that it has been.  Or maybe their desire for re-admittance is like BOD?  (ha ha, sorry, I couldn't resist).

    Would ACTUAL, public excommunication remit membership?  Would such a cleric be able to provide confession to a layperson in an emergency?  I'd like to know this.


    Offline Desmond

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    "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
    « Reply #11 on: January 16, 2016, 01:33:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn


    Well then why will you NOT answer the questions?


    Because they are wrongly formulated, oversimplified, and designed on purpose to be confusing (as in.. confuse the issues) as Pax Vobis' answers show.



    Quote
    Why will no sede answer the questions?

    I don't know why "sede" do not answer you, but I know why you keep bringing up Sedevacantism even when explicitly asked NOT TO more than once:
    This OCAC is essential to your personal flavour of R&R aka personal rejection of the SV option.


    Quote
    They are simple "yes or no" questions, fundamental to the Catholic faith and every Catholic in elementary school SHOULD know.


    Yeah, right.
    Quote

    Again, you saying it would not prove OCOC only means you are afraid to answer the questions for fear of being wrong.


    No, it means I do not want to be a plaything nor an accomplice in propagating errors.
    What I could do, if only I were more knowledgeable and patient, and optimist actually, is spending a good deal of time picking them apart one by one.

    Quote
    I do not fear being wrong, I will readily admit I am wrong when I am corrected, but for me, I need those questions answered or there is no sense in proceeding further as I will only keep reminding you that by avoiding answering those questions, you are afraid of being proven wrong by fundamental and elementary Catholic teaching - not by me.


     I'm sorry but I do not believe this even for a second. This is most probably just feigning simplicity and innocence as a rethorical artificium, as in the other thread.


    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #12 on: January 16, 2016, 02:51:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pax Vobis
    I'm a neutral party in this discussion but here are my answers.  Correct me if I'm off somewhere.

    Quote
    1) One who is ipso facto excommunicated (i.e. not formally, publicly excommunicated) for heresy, schism, apostate etc., is no longer a member of the Catholic Church, therefore not a Catholic.
    Yes or No?


    I would say they are still members of the Church because it's not a formal, public condemnation but a spiritual one (for lack of a better term).  If they recant their heresy before any formal condemnation, I don't think they have to be re-baptized, so how could they be outside of the Church?

    Quote
    2) Only Catholics are permitted to receive the sacrament of Penance (Confession).
    Yes or No?


    Yes.

    Quote
    3) Only a Catholic (priest or bishop etc.) in the sacrament of Penance can absolve the penitent.
    Yes or No?


    Yes.

    Quote
    4) In an emergency, an apostate, heretical, schismatic, ipso facto  excommunicated priest can both absolve and have his sins absolved - and lay people can have their sins absolved from the censured priest in the sacrament of penance.  
    Yes or No?


    Yes, for lay people, since the Church will supply jurisdiction to the excommunicated priest because salvation is the ultimate end of the Church.  As far as the excommunicated cleric receiving absolution, I don't know, but I would say 'yes', as, following the same logic, the Church wills all men to be saved and will allow absolution, in case of death.

    Quote

    5) Non-Catholics are not permitted to even approach or administer any of the sacraments, including the sacrament of penance?
    Yes or No?


    Yes.

    I assume your logic is that if a non-public, non-formal excommunication DOES remit membership in the Church, then the Church's canon laws mentioning such excommunicated clerics, and their association with confession, do not makes sense.  Ergo, non-formal excommunication DOES NOT remit Church membership.  I agree.

    Thank you for answering with clear answers to the clear questions and according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, which of course means that you answered all the questions correctly.



    Quote from: Pax Vobis

    Also, if membership was remitted, wouldn't Baptism have to be re-administered to excommunicants?  I've never heard that it has been.  Or maybe their desire for re-admittance is like BOD?  (ha ha, sorry, I couldn't resist).

    Would ACTUAL, public excommunication remit membership?  Would such a cleric be able to provide confession to a layperson in an emergency?  I'd like to know this.

    Remember, I underlined that the scenario was in an emergency, that is what this is scenario is all about. The Church teaches that things work a bit differently in an emergency than they do under "normal" circumstances. So yes, even a formally excommunicated priest or bishop can validly absolve sins in an emergency.  

    In normal circumstances, it depends on the offense. If the person (priest or lay man) had been formally declared as excommunicated, then no, they can never be re-baptized, but like any baptized non-Catholic entering the Church, I think they are supposed to publicly (before a priest, bishop or etc.) abjure their heresies, then go to confession.

    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Stubborn

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    "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
    « Reply #13 on: January 16, 2016, 03:00:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Desmond
    Quote from: Stubborn


    Well then why will you NOT answer the questions?


    Because they are wrongly formulated, oversimplified, and designed on purpose to be confusing (as in.. confuse the issues) as Pax Vobis' answers show.


    You are demonstrating what I have been saying for a while now, ie since the time Nado popped up here on the scene a year or so ago, now reincarnated as McCork, that whatever religion it is that he preaches, it is not Catholic.

    Pax Vobis' answers were spot on according to the Catholic Church's teachings. Meaning he obviously and clearly understood the questions and his clear answers demonstrate as much, which in turn means that if you think the questions, or his answers are confused or otherwise incomprehensible, then, well, I'm not going to make that same conclusion as applies to McCork because I don't believe that is true at all with you, imo. All I can say is the questions are clear and the answers are fundamental and elementary Catholic teaching.  
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline McCork

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    "Once Catholic always a Catholic" and the effect of Heresy on membership
    « Reply #14 on: January 16, 2016, 03:13:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Desmond
    "Once Catholic always a Catholic", in its essence, is a thesis professing that:

    Membership in the Church coincides with the indelible Mark of Baptism, and essentially the two coincide.


    I know you are still learning Catholicism, but the mark of baptism only means that a heretic remains under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church, but it isn't even a controversy that heretics, such as the Lutherans, are outside the Church nevertheless. This is a fundamental.

     

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