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Author Topic: "On the Ecuмenical Movement" by Pius XII  (Read 2521 times)

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Offline Raoul76

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"On the Ecuмenical Movement" by Pius XII
« on: July 19, 2010, 03:55:52 AM »
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  • http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFEcuм.HTM

    I think I once wrote about this last year, and somehow I found my way to it again.  

    One observation and then I have to get to bed:  Just like in the Christmas Message of 1944 where Pius XII says we must end war by creating an international organization ( like the UN ) that will "smother," that is, wage war upon, anyone who trangresses the rule -- meaning WAR IS PEACE -- here we have yet another teaching that appears double-minded.

    Pius XII's writings have a way of starting out very strong and orthodox and then suddenly collapsing into liberalism. They have a true Jekyll and Hyde quality.  This occurs over and over again.

    On the Ecuмenical Movement --
    Quote
    The Catholic Church, although she does not take part in congresses and other conventions called "ecuмenical," yet has never ceased, as is clear from many Pontifical docuмents, nor will she in future ever cease, to follow with the most intense interest and to promote by earnest prayers to God, all efforts toward the attainment of what is so dear to the Heart of Christ Our Lord, namely, that all who believe in Him "may be made perfect in one."


    This is the first paragraph.  But scroll down a little further and you will see this --

    Quote
    "With regard especially to <mixed assemblies and conferences of Catholics with non-Catholics>, which in recent times have begun to be held in many places to promote "union" in the faith, there is need of quite peculiar vigilance and control on the part of Ordinaries. For if on the one hand these meetings afford the desired opportunity to spread among non-Catholics the knowledge of Catholic doctrine, which is generally not sufficiently known to them, yet on the other hand they easily involve no slight danger of indifferentism for Catholics."


    It is almost like sleight-of-hand -- like magic.  Pius XII begins by saying that the Catholic Church does not participate in ecuмenical activities.  A couple paragraphs later, he is talking about "mixed assemblies and conferences of Catholics with non-Catholics" -- another way of saying "ecuмenical activities"!

    Some may say, Raoul, laymen participating in assemblies is not the same as the Church itself participating in ecuмenism.  Well, what is "the Church itself" in this case?  In the same instruction of the Holy Office, Pius XII speaks of "colloquies of theologians," that is, discussions between theologians Catholic and non-Catholic, as well as "inter-diocesan conferences and congresses, either national or international," which can be nothing else but participation of the clergy in interreligious discussion.  Is this not the "Catholic Church participating in ecuмenical activities," exactly what Pius XII began by saying that she didn't do?

    Let me shine the spotlight a little more brightly on the contradictions I believe we see here by comparing and contrasting two snippets of this Instruction:

    Quote
    The Catholic Church, although she does not take part in congresses and other conventions called "ecuмenical,"


    ... then a little later...

    Quote
    "As for the <inter-diocesan conferences and congresses, either national or international>, the previous permission of the Holy See, special for each case, is always required..."


    He uses the exact same word, "congresses."  But whereas at the beginning of the Instruction, it is established that the Catholic Church does not participate in ecuмenical "congresses," later he carefully draws up the rules for precisely these kinds of "congresses."  He doesn't call them "ecuмenical," but that's what they are.  They are ecuмenical in all but name.  

    The Instruction has a conservative air, because it sets what appear to be strict rules for ecuмenical meetings.  However, just by allowing them in the first place, a step has been taken towards Vatican II.  Like with so much of Pius XII's papacy, the feint at conservatism is just that -- a feint.  He is more conservative than Vatican II, but still dangerously liberal, to the point where I must continue to question his papacy.

    Am I hallucinating or is this really as bad as I think?  That wasn't aimed at Caminus; someone else please chime in.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    "On the Ecuмenical Movement" by Pius XII
    « Reply #1 on: July 19, 2010, 05:54:54 AM »
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  • The docuмent needs to be seen inits entirety:

    ON THE "EcuмENICAL MOVEMENT"
    An Instruction of the Holy Office
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Addressed to the ordinaries of places, given December 20, 1949.
    The Catholic Church, although she does not take part in congresses and other conventions called "ecuмenical," yet has never ceased, as is clear from many Pontifical docuмents, nor will she in future ever cease, to follow with the most intense interest and to promote by earnest prayers to God, all efforts toward the attainment of what is so dear to the Heart of Christ Our Lord, namely, that all who believe in Him "may be made perfect in one."[1]

    For she embraces with truly maternal affection all who return to her as the true Church of Christ; and hence, worthy of all. praise and encouragement are all those plans and projects which, with the consent of Ecclesiastical Authority, have been undertaken and are being carried forward, either for the proper Catholic instruction of future converts or for the more thorough training of persons already converted to the faith.

    Now in many parts of the world, as a result of various external events and changes of views on the part of people, but especially in consequence of the common prayers of-the faithful through the grace of the Holy Spirit, there has grown constantly in the minds of many persons separated from the Catholic Church the desire for a return to unity on the part of all who believe in the Lord Christ. To the children of the Church this is surely a cause of true and holy joy in the Lord, and at the same time an invitation to help all those who sincerely seek the truth, by earnest prayer to God imploring for them the grace of light and strength.

    However, some of the initiatives that have hitherto been taken by various individuals or groups, with the aim of reconciling dissident Christians to the Catholic Church, although inspired by the best of intentions, are not always based on right principles, or if they are, yet they are not free from special dangers, as experience too has already shown. Hence this Supreme Sacred Congregation, which has the responsibility of conserving in its entirety and protecting the deposit of the faith, has seen fit to recall to mind and to prescribe the following:

    I—Since the above-mentioned "union" is a matter which pertains primarily to the authority and office of the Church, it should be attended to with special care by the Bishops, whom "the Holy Ghost hath placed to rule the Church of God."[2] They should, therefore, not only diligently and effectively watch over this entire activity, but also prudently promote and direct it, for the purpose of both helping those who seek the truth and the true Church, and protecting the faithful against the dangers which may easily flow from the activity of this "Movement."

    Hence they must in the first place be fully aware of everything that has been and is being done through this "Movement" in their dioceses. For this purpose they shall designate well-qualified priests who, according to the doctrine and norms prescribed by the Holy See, for example by the Encyclicals "<Satis cognitum>,"[3] "<Mortalium animos>,"[4] and "<Mystici Corporis Christi>,"[5] shall pay close attention to everything which concerns the "Movement" and report thereon to the Bishops in the manner and at the time which they shall prescribe.

    They shall watch with special care over publications which may be issued in any form by Catholics on this matter, and shall see that the canons "on the previous censure and prohibition of books" (canons 1384 seq.) are observed. And they shall not fail to do the same with regard to publications of non-Catholics on the same subject, in as far as these are published, or read, or sold by Catholics.

    They shall also diligently provide whatever may be of service3 to non-Catholics who desire to know the Catholic faith; they shall designate persons and Offices to which these non-Catholics may go for consultation; and <a fortiori> they shall see to it that those who are already converted to the faith shall easily find means of more exact and deeper instruction in the Catholic faith, and of leading a more positively religious life, especially through appropriate meetings and group assemblies, through Spiritual Exercises and other works of piety.

    II—As regards <the manner and method of proceeding in this work>, the Bishops themselves will make regulations as to what is to be done and what is to be avoided, and shall see that these are observed by all. They shall also be on guard lest, on the false pretext that more attention should be paid to the points on which we agree than to those on which we differ, a dangerous indifferentism be encouraged, especially among persons whose training in theology is not deep and whose practice of their faith is not very strong. For care must be taken lest, in the so-called "irenic" spirit of today, through comparative study and the vain desire for a progressively closer mutual approach among the various professions of faith, Catholic doctrine-either in its; dogmas or in the truths which are connected with them-be so conformed or in a way adapted to the doctrines of dissident sects, that the purity of Catholic doctrine be impaired, or its genuine and certain meaning be obscured.

    Also they must restrain that dangerous manner of speaking which generates false opinions and fallacious hopes incapable of realization; for example, to the effect that the teachings of the Encyclicals of the Roman Pontiffs on the return of dissidents to the Church, on the constitution of the Church, on the Mystical Body of Christ, should not be given too much importance seeing that they are not all matters of faith, or, what is worse, that in matters of dogma even the Catholic Church has not yet attained the fullness of Christ, but can still be perfected from outside. They shall take particular care and shall firmly insist that, in going over the history of the Reformation and the Reformers the defects of Catholics be not so exaggerated and the faults of the Reformers be so dissimulated, or that things which are rather accidental be not so emphasized, that what is most essential, namely the defection from the Catholic faith, be scarcely any longer seen or felt. Finally, they shall take precautions lest, through an excessive and false external activity, or through imprudence and an excited manner of proceeding, the end in view be rather harmed than served.

    Therefore the <whole> and <entire> Catholic doctrine is to be presented and explained: by no means is it permitted to pass over in silence or to veil in ambiguous terms the Catholic truth regarding the nature and way of justification, the constitution of the Church, the primacy of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, and the only true union by the return of the dissidents to the one true Church of Christ. It should be made clear to them that, in returning to the Church, they will lose nothing of that good which by the grace of God has hitherto been implanted in them, but that it will rather be supplemented and completed by their return. However, one should not speak of this in such a way that they will imagine that in returning to the Church they are bringing to it something substantial which it has hitherto lacked. It will be necessary to say these things clearly and openly, first because it is the truth that they themselves are seeking, and moreover because outside the truth no true union can ever be attained.

    III—With regard especially to <mixed assemblies and conferences of Catholics with non-Catholics>, which in recent times have begun to be held in many places to promote "union" in the faith, there is need of quite peculiar vigilance and control on the part of Ordinaries. For if on the one hand these meetings afford the desired opportunity to spread among non-Catholics the knowledge of Catholic doctrine, which is generally not sufficiently known to them, yet on the other hand they easily involve no slight danger of indifferentism for Catholics. In cases where there seems to be some hope of good results, the Ordinary shall see that the thing is properly managed, designating for these meetings priests who are as well qualified as possible to explain and defend Catholic doctrine properly and appropriately. The faithful, however, should not attend these meetings unless they have obtained special permission from Ecclesiastical Authority, and this shall be given only to those who are known to be well instructed and strong in their faith. Where there is no apparent hope of good results, or where the affair involves special dangers on other grounds, the faithful are to be prudently kept away from the meetings, and the meetings themselves are soon to be ended or gradually suppressed. As experience teaches that larger meetings of this sort usually bear little fruit and involve greater danger, these should be permitted only after very careful consideration.

    To <colloquies between Catholic and non-Catholic theologians>, none should be sent but priests who have shown themselves truly fit for such work by their knowledge of theology and their firm adherence to the principles and norms which the Church has laid down in this matter.

    IV—All the aforesaid conferences and meetings, public and non-public, large and small, which are called for the purpose of affording an opportunity for the Catholic and the non-Catholic party for the sake of discussion to treat of matters of faith and morals, each presenting on even terms the doctrine of his own faith, are subject to the prescriptions of the Church which were recalled to mind in the <Monitum, "cuм compertum>," of this Congregation under date of 5 June, 1948.[6] Hence mixed congresses are not absolutely forbidden; but they are not to be held without the previous permission of the competent Ecclesiastical Authority. The <Monitum>, however, does not apply to catechetical instructions, even when given to many together, nor to conferences in which Catholic doctrine is explained to non-Catholics who are prospective converts: even though the opportunity is afforded for the non-Catholics to explain also the doctrine of their church so that they may understand clearly and thoroughly in what respect it agrees with the Catholic doctrine and in what it differs therefrom.

    Neither does the said <Monitum> apply to those mixed meetings of Catholics and non-Catholics in which the discussion does not turn upon faith and morals but upon ways and means of defending the fundamental principles of the natural law or of the Christian religion against the enemies of God who are now leagued together, or where the question is how to restore social order, or other topics of that nature. Even in these meetings, as is evident, Catholics may not approve or concede anything which is in conflict with divine revelation or with the doctrine of the Church even on social questions.

    As to <local> conferences and conventions which are within the scope of the <Monitum> as above explained, the Ordinaries of places are given, for three years from the publication of this Instruction,[7] the faculty of granting the required previous permission of the Holy See, on the following conditions:

    1. That <communicatio in sacris> be entirely avoided;
    2. that the presentations of the matter be duly inspected and directed;
    3. that at the close of each year a report be made to this Supreme Sacred Congregation, stating where such meetings were held and what experience was gathered from them.

    As regards the <colloquies of theologians> above mentioned, the same faculty for the same length of time is granted to the Ordinary of the place where such colloquies are held, or to the Ordinary delegated for this work by the common consent of the other Ordinaries, under the same conditions as above, but with the further requirement that the report to this Sacred Congregation state also what questions were treated, who were present, and who the speakers were for either side.

    As for the <inter-diocesan conferences and congresses, either national or international>, the previous permission of the Holy See, special for each case, is always required; and in the petition asking for it, it must also be stated what are the questions to be treated and who the speakers are to be. And it is not allowed before this permission has been obtained, to begin the external preparation of such meetings or to collaborate with non-Catholics who begin such preparation.

    V—Although in all these meetings and conferences any communication whatsoever in worship must be avoided, yet the recitation in common of the Lord's Prayer or of some prayer approved by the Catholic Church, is not forbidden for opening or closing the said meetings.

    VI—Although each Ordinary has the right and duty to conduct, promote, and preside over this work in' his own diocese, yet the cooperation of several Bishops will be appropriate or even necessary in establishing offices and works to observe, study, and control this work <as a whole>. Accordingly it will rest with the Ordinaries themselves to confer together and consider how a proper uniformity of action and coordination can be obtained.

    VII—Religious Superiors are bound to watch and to see to it that their subjects adhere strictly and faithfully to the prescriptions laid down by the Holy See or by the local Ordinaries in this matter.

    In order that so noble a work as the "union" of all Christians in one true faith and Church may daily grow into a more conspicuous part of the entire care of souls, and that the whole Catholic people may more earnestly implore this "union" from Almighty God, it will certainly be of assistance that in some appropriate way, for example through Pastoral Letters, the faithful be instructed regarding these questions and projects, the prescriptions of the Church in the matter, and the reasons on which they are based. All, especially priests and religious, should be exhorted and warmly encouraged to be zealous by their prayers and sacrifices to ripen and promote this work, and all should be reminded that nothing more effectively paves the way for the erring to find the truth and to embrace the Church than the faith of Catholics, when it is confirmed by the example of upright living.

    Given at Rome, from the Holy Office, 20 Dec., 1949.

    AAS 42-142; Holy Office, Instruction, 20 Dec., 1949. <Periodica>, 39-204 (Hurth); <Monitor Ecclesiasticus>, 1950, p. 21 (Boyer); <The Jurist>, 10 (1950), p. 206.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Endnotes

    1 John 17:23.

    2 Acts 20:28.

    3 <Acta Leonis> XIII, Vol. 16 (1897), p. 157.

    4 AAS, Vol. 20 (1928), p. 5.

    5 <Ibid>., Vol. 35 (1943), p. 193.

    6 AAS 40-257; reported above in this same volume, under canon 1325.

    7 The date of <publication> is 31 January, 1950.
     


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    "On the Ecuмenical Movement" by Pius XII
    « Reply #2 on: July 19, 2010, 05:58:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Am I hallucinating or is this really as bad as I think?  


    You were hallucinating.

    Offline Raoul76

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    "On the Ecuмenical Movement" by Pius XII
    « Reply #3 on: July 19, 2010, 11:15:38 AM »
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  • No, you either didn't read, or didn't take in what I said.

    Pius XII starts out saying the Church doesn't participate in ecuмenical congresses.  Then he goes on to lay out the conditions for how Catholics should participate in exactly that -- ecuмenical congresses.

    Even "Cardinal" Kaspar talks about how Pius XII took a step on the road to VII ecuмenism, just as he was the one to hire Bugnini and let him tinker with the liturgy.

    Do you care to address what I wrote or just make pithy retorts?  I shouldn't have set you up with that "am I hallucinating" line, but I was trying to get across the double-minded nature of Pius XII's writings where he starts out saying one thing and then contradicts it in the body of the letter.

    It is just like in the Allocution to the Midwives where he talks about how couples in a medical emergency should abstain completely, and then says that for medical reasons they can use NFP.  And how can you not feel like you're hallucinating when you read this?

    "61. Having passed, as it has, through an ocean of blood and tears in a form perhaps never experienced in past ages, it has lived through the indescribable atrocities with an intensity such that the recollection of so many horrors must remain stamped in its memory, and even in the deepest recesses of its soul, like a picture of a hell against which anyone who cherishes a sense of humanity desires more than anything else to close the door forever.

    FORMATION OF A COMMON MEANS TO MAINTAIN PEACE

    62. The decisions already published by international commissions permit one to conclude that an essential point in any future international arrangement would be the formation of an organ for the maintenance of peace, of an organ invested by common consent with supreme power to whose office it would also pertain to smother in its germinal state any threat of isolated or collective aggression."

    I have said it before and will say it again -- those who aren't troubled by Pius XII and act as if he was some great conservative Pope after reading this are hallucinating.  This is 90 proof nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr.  It is flat-out Orwellian.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    "On the Ecuмenical Movement" by Pius XII
    « Reply #4 on: July 19, 2010, 11:32:30 AM »
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  • RC, what does posting the entire speech have to do with anything?  I put a link to the speech up there myself.  

    The speech has the appearance of being conservative because, unlike with VII, Pius XII exercises caution about ecuмenical meetings, and lays down conditions under which they should occur.  He iterates that they should never be undertaken except with the permission of the Ordinary, that only laymen who are experienced and have sound faith should be engaged in such activities, and that the Catholic religion should not be undercut or ameliorated by its defenders, that the universal jurisdiction of the Pope, among other unique features of the one true Church, not only should but must be addressed.  Sounds good, right?

    But you're missing my point entirely.  The point is that AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS INSTRUCTION, PIUS XII SAYS THAT THE CHURCH DOES NOT ENGAGE IN EcuмENICAL CONGRESSES.  AT THE END OF THE INSTRUCTION, HE HAS GIVEN PERMISSION FOR EcuмENICAL CONGRESSES, WITHOUT EVER OPENLY SAYING THAT HE IS THE ONE MAKING THIS CHANGE.

    It looks conservative to you because Pius XII's brand of ecuмenism is far less dangerous than VII ecuмenism.  Nevertheless, it is ecuмenism.  Something that people really have to learn is that less bad does not mean good.  VII did not happen overnight; the road was paved for it.  How is it possible to deny that Pius XII not only paved the road, but covered it in slippery grease, helping the cars to careen out of control?

    This has all the marks of Hegelianism.  If what I'm suspecting is true, he would have the role of the "antithesis" while VII has the role of the "synthesis."
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    "On the Ecuмenical Movement" by Pius XII
    « Reply #5 on: July 19, 2010, 08:42:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76


    No, you either didn't read, or didn't take in what I said.

    Do you care to address what I wrote or just make pithy retorts?  I shouldn't have set you up with that "am I hallucinating" line...
    I.


    Oh I read what you wrote and I took it in. Ok I will address it for you, but I have other duties now.

    Meantime do you care to read what the Pope actually wrote without coloring it yourself? Let's see if you can work through your concerns yourself before I make the effort of enlightening you.

    Oh, and you set yourself up with the  "am I hallucinating" line.


    PS. I posted the docuмent in its entirety because it is worth reading, and some visitors may not bother to click on the link you gave.

    PPS. Forget what Kasper said, those Modernists often try to use good Catholics from the past to support their heretical movement.  Don't be surprised if they canonize Pius1X together with JP2.

    Offline Caminus

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    "On the Ecuмenical Movement" by Pius XII
    « Reply #6 on: July 19, 2010, 09:31:03 PM »
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  • Pius XII attempted to maintain proper distinctions, but those have been ignored by modernists.  He saw a distinction between inter-diocesan meetings, manifestly lead by Catholics in order to demonstate the truth of their position and the Catholic Church formally "joining in" the ecuмenical movement as one participant Church among many in another kind of "congress."  It is a fine, but important distinction.

    But why even bother with this at all?  Most probably because he was deceived by bishops into thinking this was of most pressing importance for Catholics.    

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    "On the Ecuмenical Movement" by Pius XII
    « Reply #7 on: July 19, 2010, 10:22:44 PM »
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  • Do not forget that Pius Xll Confessor was Father Bea,
    Later the very ecuмenical Cardinal Bea. Bea was one
    of the revolutionarys of Vatican 2 that rewrote Catholic
    teachings.
    I pray that the future Peter ll does not have a liberal,
    and a modernists as a confessor.


    Offline Raoul76

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    "On the Ecuмenical Movement" by Pius XII
    « Reply #8 on: November 16, 2013, 02:52:30 PM »
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  • Three years onward -- I was wrong about this docuмent of Pius XII on ecuмenism. My apologies, and apologies for calling him double-minded, here and in any other thread, which could have been a rash judgment, depending on what I meant by it.

    I was hallucinating, as Roman Catholic pointed out. I just had no objectivity towards Pius XII at that time. There is certainly no false ecuмenism in this docuмent. I apologize for insulting him and the Church, because even if this docuмent is not infallible, certainly it would require religious assent.

    To say Pius XII was liberal, well, not in the sense of Vatican II Popes, or of liberal politicians -- MAYBE liberally-Catholic compared to some other Popes, and I believe he was perceived that way at the time. I still have problems with Pius XII, but I try to be accurate.

    I was obviously confused when he says that the Church does not participate in ecuмenical congresses. But now I understand he is clearly distinguishing between individuals in the Church, and the Church itself.

    The rest of this docuмent, like much of Pius XII's pontificate, presents itself to be perceived in two ways. There is nothing in it against the faith, mind you -- that is not what I'm saying. But it does seem to take a step closer to what we now know of as false ecuмenism. He didn't, in other words, crack down on ecuмenical meetings entirely, even when he admits himself that they can be dangerous and rarely bear fruit. He didn't forbid them. He just put restrictions on them. It is all perfectly orthodox, just like the three-hour fast, but was it the best thing?

    Quote
    As experience teaches that larger meetings of this sort usually bear little fruit and involve greater danger, these should be permitted only after very careful consideration.

    To <colloquies between Catholic and non-Catholic theologians>, none should be sent but priests who have shown themselves truly fit for such work by their knowledge of theology and their firm adherence to the principles and norms which the Church has laid down in this matter.


    Sure, in itself, there is nothing here against the faith. But look at the overall situation in his time. You have a situation where the Church was infiltrated, perhaps to a significant degree, and Pius XII is relying on whatever sharply educated and orthodox clergy there are to aid people in participating in these congresses that are dangerous and rarely bear fruit.

    I do understand that, if he stopped it altogether, he may have created a backlash, and that sometimes the Church should "bend" a little. The debate about Pius XII would mostly be about whether he bent farther than would be ideal. I make no pronouncements on it. Looked at one way, he paved the way to Vatican II, in a certain sense, getting people used to all these rapid changes; in another way, you could see it as God mercifully making concessions to people, hoping thereby to give them just enough slack to keep them in the fold.

    At this point, I think certain concessions Pius XII made were wiser than others; but of course, since he was true Pope, leader of the true Church, none of them were remotely impious or heretical.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Ambrose

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    "On the Ecuмenical Movement" by Pius XII
    « Reply #9 on: November 16, 2013, 07:03:00 PM »
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  • Raoul,

    I think it may be good to keep in mind that Pope Pius XII was dealing with things that his predecessors never had to deal with.  He was reacting and adapting to events all around him, medical advancements, World War II, the Cold War, liturgical development that began with St. Pius X and continued through his predecessors and passed onto him, etc.

    His actions may appear liberal, but only if one interprets them to be liberal.  In my opinion, Pius XII was like a fearless general, who when the enemy was pounding on the gates of the city, kept holding the line, and brilliantly kept the enemy out.  

    it was only after his death that the forces of evil were able to put forth their plan.  He was the obstacle that stopped them, whether he realized this or not.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline ThomisticPhilosopher

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    "On the Ecuмenical Movement" by Pius XII
    « Reply #10 on: November 18, 2013, 04:10:04 PM »
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  • The problem with your approach is that it is way too much "read in between the lines."

    He said explicitly that the Holy See does not participate in such congresses etc... Just read it in plain english, and that is it. No problems... Just like when we read Bergoglio in plain english you find an apostate, we need no "interpretations" like "father" Z. approach of reading "Francis through Benedict." Which is quite ridiculous if you ask me...

    Now if a Catholic individually hangs around with non-Catholics which is GOING to happen all the time. Lets say I go to a local volleyball tournament etc... Anywhere where no communicatio in sacris will not take place, this is good in itself because as he says it gives the opportunity to non-Catholics to hear the saving truth of the Catholic Church. Any other interpretation is your own, and no one during those days saw it as ANYTHING but that. Just because a modernist re-interprets what a true Pope would say does not mean anything. They tend to do re-write scripture all the time, what makes you think that they will not go proof-texting around to find "evidence" for their heretical ideas/writings.

    You seriously need to lay off Pope Pius XII, you have real problems with these issues and you should simply stop reading garbage that will poison your head. You have stated previously that your mission was to "take" down Pius XII. It is a DOGMATIC fact that he is a true Pope, despite whatever Mr. Ibryani might tell you or whichever other radical schismatic might say. Seriously if "you find" something amazing or particular that NO ONE ELSE and I literally mean no one else saw, then you are hallucinating.

    You might wonder why I am so hard on you. You are the tickling at the ears of those who are not emotionally stable and already prone to see conspiracy in everything. Certain things that the MSM calls conspiracy are facts, and as such they should be called as such. There are certain theories and ideas floating around that are truly cօռspιʀαcιҽs in the mind of nutty people who have no common sense or logic. I tend to argue that it is better to be nutty then to be completely ignorant of what is going on. However, in this forum its the other way around I would advocate to balance because most of those who read here already have some idea of the NWO agenda that is going etc... They have a pretty decent idea of what is going on for the most part, they might not have all the details squared away but good enough in my opinion.

    Scruples can be a very spiritually difficult thing to get rid of... Do anything but sin, relax a little. I would advocate to sleep on a bed of silk pillows and super soft comfiness. Don't do any asceticism, fasting etc... Work first on the interior virtues, and then under proper spiritual guidance go to asceticism as a tool in spiritual perfection. We are not witch hunter's despite what anyone might stereotypically see SV'ist as. We simply call a spade a spade, nothing more and nothing less.

    Ora, ora, ora...
    https://keybase.io/saintaquinas , has all my other verified accounts including PGP key plus BTC address for bitcoin tip jar. A.M.D.G.