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Author Topic: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"  (Read 11524 times)

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Offline Johannes

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"It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
« on: January 15, 2025, 10:08:21 AM »
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    • Taken from:
     Spiritual Conference
    Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
    15 April 1986

    Communicatio in sacris 

    And I think that is what is now crucial before our eyes, that we are faced with bishops, and even the Pope, who no longer obey the faith… because going to the Jews… These are essentially the same Jews, the same ones who rejected Our Lord. It is exactly the same thing, the same spirit. They are against Our Lord Jesus Christ.
    They chanted, at the Pope’s departure from the ѕуηαgσgυє:  

    ‘We are waiting for the Messiah, we are waiting for the Messiah, we are waiting for the Messiah…’

    If they are waiting, it is because they do not believe in the One who came. It’s clear. So? Therefore, it is not possible to pray with people like that, it is not possible. There is a disobedience to the faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord Jesus Christ is no longer preached as he should be, as the Apostles did. 

    So we face this fact which theologians call communicatio in sacris. It is a fact: communicatio in sacris. Take your moral theology books. Go look under the virtue of faith, and you will see that with the virtue of faith, there is always a small chapter on the protection of the faith and the defense of certain things concerning the faith. Communicatio in sacris is generally forbidden. But it is distinguished between active and passive. 

    Passive participation is when someone, out of curiosity, attends a non-Catholic ceremony—always non-Catholic; they categorise all non-Catholics together: Protestants, Muslims, all possible and imaginable cults that are not Catholic. Passive participation means attending out of curiosity or for ceremonies involving friends, relatives, or others who are not Catholic, but always remaining passive: no prayers, no communication, no singing. They are absolutely passive. This is allowed in certain cases. 
    But active communicatio in sacris is absolutely forbidden, absolutely forbidden.

    Is the Roman Pontiff above the law? 
    Then you will say: ‘But the Pope is above the law.’
    The Pope is not above divine laws! He is above ecclesiastical laws, okay. One cannot say that because he did that, he will be excommunicated: this is an ecclesiastical law, as a consequence of this suspicion of heresy and this heresy... but still, this is a law made by the Church, it's another matter.

    But, concerning the suspicion of heresy and heresy, it is a direct consequence of communicatio in sacris, thus a communion with people who do not share our faith. That falls exactly under the prescription, the prohibition that Saint Paul makes to the Corinthians, saying:  

    ‘Bear not the yoke with unbelievers […] What concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness?’

    It cannot be clearer. But Saint John also says the same thing. They forbid going to the unbelievers, communing with the unbelievers, being together... and even more so in prayer! 

    When it comes to prayers, songs, even touching the organ, it's forbidden, absolutely forbidden! Even if the words of the prayers are orthodox and not contrary to the Catholic faith.

    Even so, it is not allowed because praying with those who do not share our faith, who do not have the Catholic faith, is, in a way, communing with them in their faith, a faith that is not Catholic. Thus, implicitly, it is an act contrary to the Catholic faith, and therefore an act that puts you in the situation of being suspect of heresy. And if you are warned and continue after six months, you are then considered a heretic.  

    What do you want? It’s a fact. The Pope prayed with them. And he has been announcing it these past few days—it was in the Osservatore Romano that I read today: all the announcements for Assisi—and the Pope announces that he will pray with all religions to God... What God? He will pray to God... thus with all religions for peace, supposedly... 
    That’s a problem, a theological problem, a problem you can consult... Canon Law, communicatio in sacris in the Canon Law dictionary by Naz, you will see what it says! Go consult all the moral books, on the virtue of faith you will find communicatio in sacris. It's not very long, a bit less explicit than in Naz, in the Canon Law dictionary, but you will see what it is.
    You will see if we are not facing just such a case. 

    The legitimacy of discussing a vacancy of the Holy See 

    Then this problem arises.  
    • First problem: communicatio in sacris.  
    • Second problem: the question of heresy.  
    • Third problem: is the pope still the pope when he is heretical?  
    I do not know, I am not making a decision! But you can ask yourselves the question. I think that any sensible man must ask himself the question. I do not know.  
    So now, is it urgent to talk about it?…  
    We may not talk about it, of course… We can talk about it among ourselves, privately, in our offices, in our private conversations, among seminarians, among priests, and all that…  
    Should we talk about it to the faithful? Many say: ‘No, do not talk to the faithful. They will be scandalised. It will be terrible, it will go far…’ 
    Well. I told the priests, in Paris, when I gathered them, and then to you, I had already told you, I said: ‘I think that, little by little, we must still enlighten the faithful a little…’  
    I do not say that it should be done brutally, and throw this to the faithful to frighten them… No. But I still think that it is precisely a matter of faith.  
    The faithful must not lose the faith. We are responsible for keeping the faith of the faithful, protecting it. They will lose the faith… even our traditionalists.  
    Even our traditionalists will no longer have faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. For this faith is lost! It is lost in the priests, it is lost in the bishops. 


    Source: +Lefebvre: 'Any sensible man must ask' if a heretic is still pope, can discuss with others


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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #1 on: January 15, 2025, 10:52:51 AM »
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    • We are obliged to hold that Jorge Bergoglio is not the pope.  The following is the argumentation:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church. (Divine and Catholic Faith)
    But Jorge Bergoglio has committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy. (Moral Certitude)
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio is separated from the Church. (Moral Certitude)

    One who is separated from the Church is not a member of the Church. (Divine and Catholic Faith)
    But Jorge Bergoglio is separated from the Church. (Moral Certitude)
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio is not a member of the Church. (Moral Certitude)

    One who is not a member of the Church cannot be pope. (Divine and Catholic Faith)
    But Jorge Bergoglio is not a member of the Church. (Moral Certitude)
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio cannot be pope. (Moral Certitude)
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #2 on: January 15, 2025, 12:11:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on January 15, 2025, 10:52:51 AM
    We are obliged to hold that Jorge Bergoglio is not the pope.  The following is the argumentation:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church. (Divine and Catholic Faith)
    But Jorge Bergoglio has committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy. (Moral Certitude)
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio is separated from the Church. (Moral Certitude)

    One who is separated from the Church is not a member of the Church. (Divine and Catholic Faith)
    But Jorge Bergoglio is separated from the Church. (Moral Certitude)
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio is not a member of the Church. (Moral Certitude)

    One who is not a member of the Church cannot be pope. (Divine and Catholic Faith)
    But Jorge Bergoglio is not a member of the Church. (Moral Certitude)
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio cannot be pope. (Moral Certitude)

    So it's just as easy to substitue Jorge Bergoglio with Father Ratzinger in the above and arrive at the same conclusion.

    Oh, wait, though, yeah, you hold that Ratzinger has NOT "committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy".  Well, I hold that it's moral certitude that he was, just like you hold it to be moral certitude that Bergoglio is ... whereas others claim that he's not and the Ratzinger was not.

    See the problem yet?
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #3 on: January 15, 2025, 12:38:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 15, 2025, 12:11:57 PM
    So it's just as easy to substitue Jorge Bergoglio with Father Ratzinger in the above and arrive at the same conclusion.

    Oh, wait, though, yeah, you hold that Ratzinger has NOT "committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy".  Well, I hold that it's moral certitude that he was, just like you hold it to be moral certitude that Bergoglio is ... whereas others claim that he's not and the Ratzinger was not.

    See the problem yet?

    Jorge Bergoglio's pertinacity is manifestly evident.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #4 on: January 15, 2025, 01:55:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on January 15, 2025, 12:55:44 PM
    Didn't Ratzinger also do all the same communicatio in sacris stuff  that +ABL pointed out about JPII from the above?
    Or, was it not evident enough for you?

    No.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #5 on: January 15, 2025, 02:05:07 PM »
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    • (this is just on the topic of inter-faith worship; each fails on other topics many, many times).

    JP2 = Assisi inter-faith worship in the 80s.  God responded by a massive earthquake.  HERETIC.
    Benedict = worshipped with Jєωs multiple times; visited their ѕуηαgσgυєs; elevated judiaism over the papacy.  HERETIC.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #6 on: January 15, 2025, 02:49:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on January 15, 2025, 02:06:41 PM

    "So everyone could see the Holy Father entering the ѕуηαgσgυє! So many Catholics, of course not just Catholics, but many Catholics saw that... poor people, little Christians from the countryside, without even realising it—because now we no longer have faith, that is the serious problem. We no longer have the Catholic faith, it has diminished everywhere, it is really reduced to very little—so they do not see the malice in this. The Pope went to visit the Jєωs, he shook hands with the Chief Rabbi, he made an act of charity, he made a courteous visit, etc. " +ABL






    Catholic Friends of Israel: Pope Benedict XVI's visit to the Great ѕуηαgσgυє of Rome

    Don't use Archbishop Lefebvre because he accepted John Paul II as pope.  He would have accepted Benedict XVI as pope as well.

    In regards to Jorge Bergoglio, there are even Novus Ordo priests who consider him to be a public heretic.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #7 on: January 15, 2025, 04:06:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on January 15, 2025, 03:07:34 PM
    Don't follow Jesus because He chose Judas as an Apostle (not a mistake).

    Don't listen to Paul because he acknowledged the High priest of the Jєωs (not a mistake).

    Don't read anything from St. Vincent Ferrer because he followed antipope Luna for years (an honest mistake).

    :facepalm:

    It is difficult to prove pertinacity, to the level of moral certitude, against John Paul II and Benedict XVI.  Pertinacity is essential for formal heresy.  Benedict XVI, for example, adopted a hermeneutic of continuity, showing that he did not want to break from Tradition.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #8 on: January 15, 2025, 06:48:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on January 15, 2025, 04:06:25 PM
    It is difficult to prove pertinacity, to the level of moral certitude, against John Paul II and Benedict XVI.  Pertinacity is essential for formal heresy.  Benedict XVI, for example, adopted a hermeneutic of continuity, showing that he did not want to break from Tradition.

    Right, you can make an assessment of the internal forum to determine that Bergoglio was pertinacious but Ratzinger was not.  It's ludicrous.  If anything, Bergoglio could be excuse of ignorance because he really is low IQ, whereas Ratzinger was a brilliant man and knew exactly what he was doing.  That "hermeneutic of continuity" was just a smokescreen for and expression of his Hegelian dialectic where he was looking for "hybrids".

    If you were completely biased, you'd objectively look at Ratzinger's work and realize that he was a FAR WORSE heretic than Bergoglio.  Even Bishop Tissier did a study of Ratzinger's heresy and declared him a "worse heretic than Luther", and rightly so.

    It's pathetic.  You just decide you don't like Jorge and construct your entire nonsensical BS based on your emotions.
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    Offline Michelle

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #9 on: January 16, 2025, 01:19:33 PM »
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    • It seems clear to me.  Since 1958 we have not had a practicing Catholic man that believes in the true faith leading the Catholic Church.  We have not had a Catholic leader teaching truth and condemning error in the Vatican.  Yes, there has been living red blooded men occupying the realm since 1958 but not a true Catholic leader.
    In fact, they all have propagated the Masonic, religion of man and attacked the true Catholic faithful.  When has that ever happened in the history of the Church?
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #10 on: January 16, 2025, 02:13:15 PM »
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #11 on: January 16, 2025, 02:15:30 PM »
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #12 on: January 16, 2025, 03:53:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on January 16, 2025, 02:25:27 PM
    Kramer is wrong about what came before Jorge (he has skin the game and stands to lose - he is also very taken with prophecies) I enjoyed reading several of his books, but he is blind to the reality - +ABL could always see it (as the quoted Conference above shows), but he just couldn't stomach what it leads to for so many millions and was honestly mistaken for vacilitating.

    The N.O. church cannot be the Catholic Church simply because V2 promulgated error/heresy. To say that a true council ratified by a true pope could do that IS heresy.

    Poll: What did Vatican II teach? - Crisis in the Church - Catholic Info

    All the other post-conciliar false popes did/said the same - and in some cases even worse than Francis:

    +ABL on JPII from the same article in this OP:

    "They do not see it. That is the reaction of most people. Why? 
    Because they no longer have faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. 
    They do not have faith in the unique salvation of the world, the unique Saviour of the world who is Our Lord Jesus Christ: 

    'Oh! we are saved everywhere and even more so... since the Pope does that, so all religions are good, whether one is Jєωιѕн, Muslim, or whatever, it doesn’t matter... We all go to the same God...’

    … as the Pope himself, unfortunately, says.
    I have it in a speech from Cameroon; he explicitly states: 
    ‘We Catholics believe that Jesus is the only way to God, but we respect all the ways that lead to God!’
    ... So, if there is only one way to lead to God, how can we respect all the ways that lead to God? So there are other ways that go to God... according to each one's conscience! It is incredible!"

    If you can't see it, it is either because you are not read up, or you are bad-willed and will remain willfully blinded.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #13 on: January 16, 2025, 07:42:50 PM »
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    • No, not all errors are "intrinsically pernicious".  Father Kramer just made that one up.  You can be wrong about something without your mistake/error being harmful to faith.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: "It is possible that we will be obliged to believe that this pope is not pope"
    « Reply #14 on: January 16, 2025, 08:25:33 PM »
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    • These several men posing as popes are communists who reject Jesus and the true teachings of the Catholic Church.  

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    May God bless you and keep you
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