Author Topic: "In Portugal the dogma of the faith will always be preserved." (Read 2996 times)

MyrnaM · « **on:** March 14, 2011, 08:40:21 AM »

It would be interesting if anyone has any insights on this one. Raoul brought this up on another thread and got me to thinking.

The word "preserve" just means to be kept alive, it doesn't mean that everyone in Portugal will be living the Faith.

Our Lady might have told this to the children so they will not lose hope. Hope for us all, that there will be places in the world where the Faith will be kept alive. By her mentioning only Portugal does not mean it won't be kept alive in other places in the world, but Portugal was the place best known to the children, their home. After all she was speaking to them at the time.

We seem to think that just because Our Lady mentioned Portugal it has to be the PERFECT place for the Catholic Faith. In reality, the devil is there more so than other places, since he too heard her words. The truth is she did appear there and gave her message, now it is up to us to obey her requests, and trust that in Portugal the Faith somewhere, and in someplaces the Faith is very much alive and preserved.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #1 on:** March 14, 2011, 10:06:31 AM »

I've had a personal theory on this for some time.

I tried to think of what made Portugal quasi-unique and came up empty. That is until I read that only in Portugal and in Poland were the words of consecration of the wine in the NO Mass, "pro multis" translated correctly as "for many". In all other vernacular translations "pro multis" was deliberately mistranslated as "for all" or something similar.

This is important for two reasons.

Firstly, the mistranslation casts at least some doubt as to the validity of the vernacular NO consecration. Thus the dogma of the Eucharist (transubstantiation) would be preserved in all Masses in Portugal, if indeed the mistranslation invalidates.

Secondly, the mistranslation implies universal salvation. "For many" preserves the dogmas relating to salvation and that Hell exists and is inhabited. This would go hand in hand with Our Lady showing the children the vision of Hell.

Anyway, that's the closest explanation I've come up with to figuring it out...

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2011, 11:29:55 AM »

For all we know, Portugal may undergo some sort of great religious revival while the rest of the nations of the world still wallow in darkness.

We really wont know until it happens, and I dont think we will have to wait too much longer.

Also, while it may not qualify for the label of Catholic Prophecy, Yves Dupont notes in his book that Nostradamus (a Jєωιѕн magician) predicted that a particular nation in the West would come to the aid of the Pope militarily. Dupont states that the name of the country that was given can either be translated as Portugal or America.

Personally, I'd put my money on Portugal.

Portugal has actually consecrated itself to the Immaculate Heart at least twice.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #3 on:** March 14, 2011, 11:33:25 AM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

Firstly, the mistranslation casts at least some doubt as to the validity of the vernacular NO consecration.

As you likely know, a doubtful sacrament is to be taken as no sacrament at all.

Quote

Secondly, the mistranslation implies universal salvation.

Agreed, which is why so many in the NO believe this, or have strong leanings toward the idea. Worship reflects belief, but it can also create/influence it.

TKGS · « **Reply #4 on:** March 14, 2011, 11:51:03 AM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

I've had a personal theory on this for some time.

I tried to think of what made Portugal quasi-unique and came up empty. That is until I read that only in Portugal and in Poland were the words of consecration of the wine in the NO Mass, "pro multis" translated correctly as "for many". In all other vernacular translations "pro multis" was deliberately mistranslated as "for all" or something similar.

This is important for two reasons.

Firstly, the mistranslation casts at least some doubt as to the validity of the vernacular NO consecration. Thus the dogma of the Eucharist (transubstantiation) would be preserved in all Masses in Portugal, if indeed the mistranslation invalidates.

Secondly, the mistranslation implies universal salvation. "For many" preserves the dogmas relating to salvation and that Hell exists and is inhabited. This would go hand in hand with Our Lady showing the children the vision of Hell.

Anyway, that's the closest explanation I've come up with to figuring it out...

I find this a pretty good explanation, if it is true that the words of Consecration in the New Order were translated correctly. Assuming the fact (I, personally, can't confirm it as I don't know Portuguese nor have I actually ever seen a Portuguesen "sacramentary" or translation.

But I also think it is important to note that the sentence is not a simple declarative sentence. The actual sentence is always reported as being, "In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved, etc."

Clearly, this is only the first clause of a complete sentence in which we do not have access to the remainder. Many people presume that it is the first clause of the Third Secret. In any event, there are no public statements as to what the "etc." refers.

For this reason, I never presume to interpret only a part of the sentence. I think speculation of this clause is akin to speculating on the meaning of half a Scripture verse.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 15, 2011, 02:47:06 AM »

I no longer have a problem with this, for the reason TKGS said. We don't have the rest of the sentence.

The next word might be "unless":

"In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved, unless..."

That convinced me. The next clause could completely change the meaning of the sentence.

What I do have a problem with is how the second secret came out after what it was warning about had already happened, and you can see the same pattern forming with the third secret. Meanwhile, I don't need any secrets, because by putting together the Monarch prophecies with the Apocalypse, and then just using whatever insights I have about the present-day, the economic situation, the corrupt governments, and so on, I am not in much doubt about the general direction of the future, though many details are unknown.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #6 on:** March 15, 2011, 08:28:13 AM »

Raoul, good point with "unless".

As for Fatima, which secrets were revealed after the prophecies came true? I thought Our Lady predicted WWI in one of them?

Also how do you explain the miracle of the sun?

Raoul76 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 15, 2011, 10:32:20 AM »

The second secret that predicts WWI, according to many sources, was revealed to Bishop Da Silva in 1941 after World War I had already begun. But Caminus, in another thread, quoted a source saying that Lucia tried to have it released in 1929.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #8 on:** March 15, 2011, 10:55:51 AM »

That may be true Raoul, about Bishop Da Silva revealing them much later however, I always believed all three secrets were revealed during the appearances of Our Lady between May and October 1917, and before WWII. Why would Our Lady tell something after the fact? Just because the secret was not WRITTEN DOWN, doesn't mean it was given prior to the event.

Consider this sign about the coming of WWII, "a night illuminated by an unknown light" According to Fatima Prophecies, "on January 25, 1938, a remarkable display of aurora borealis was visible across Europe, the year before World War II began."

Also you have the miracle of the Incorrupt Body of Blessed Jacinta Marto, Visionary of Fatima to consider.

Matthew · « **Reply #9 on:** March 15, 2011, 11:15:30 AM »

The Miracle of the Sun was witnessed by tens of thousands, including the secular authorities.

I think it was even in the newspaper the next day.

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #10 on:** March 15, 2011, 11:26:32 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

The Miracle of the Sun was witnessed by tens of thousands, including the secular authorities.

I think it was even in the newspaper the next day.

It was, and it was printed in more than one newspaper.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 15, 2011, 01:44:15 PM »

Myrna, the point is that the second secret calls for the consecration of Russia by all the bishops, and for repentance from the Catholic people in order to avert the war.

If the war had already started, how could anyone do these things that Our Lady had asked?

Caminus' explanation is the most satisfying for me, which is that Lucia was authorized by Mary to ask for the consecration in 1929, and she apparently told her superiors in 1929, but the request wasn't released. In this case the Church authorities failed to make it known. This makes sense, because one of the conditions of Mary's promise is that the Church authorities, not just the laity, had to comply with her wishes. Then the third secret was actively suppressed.

The Miracle of the Sun at one time didn't even convince me, because it was reported in Masonic newspapers, and I believed Fatima was of Satanic origin... Therefore, I thought the Masonic papers and the devil were working hand-in-hand and were using Fatima to create confusion. This isn't so far-fetched, it's basically what is happening with Medjugorje.