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Author Topic: "He who hears you, hears Me..."  (Read 9553 times)

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Offline Cletus

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"He who hears you, hears Me..."
« Reply #75 on: September 01, 2008, 09:46:45 AM »
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  • The "Church's" problems are very much the personal problems of most Traditionalists.

    Before Vatican II your simple work-a-day Catholic life went hand in hand with your simple Average American life.

    No moving all over the country all the time to increase Sacramental opportunities.

    No total breakdowns of family relationships due to one Thanksgiving argument to many over the REAL motives of Cardinal Pizzalardo in playing nicey-nicey with His Grace.

    No visits from the FBI because I once sold a book to a devout Catholic whose devout Catholicism led him to try to kill the putative pope.

    In any case, we ARE the Church. Its problems are ours and vice versa.

    To raise your kids decently (an eminently PRACTICAL business) you have to avoid the catechetical hellholles of what passes for the Catholic Church of Rome in this world.

    The issues discussed on this message board very much pertain to the practical business of seeking the good and the true and the safer in this world.


    Offline MaterDominici

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    "He who hears you, hears Me..."
    « Reply #76 on: September 01, 2008, 04:56:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: ChantCd
    ...As a busy family man, I have more important PRACTICAL things to worry about in my life.


    Like discussing 'home alone'-rs/ism?

    Quote
    I used to spend more time arguing such issues, but now I see that it's hard enough to become a saint without taking on the Church's problems as well. Perhaps single people have the time for it -- I just know that I don't.


    Home alone-rs/ism is hardly more germane to your spiritual progress, etc., than dealing with the paramount issue raised within this thread.  IMO, it is a question of choosing battles.  Fair enough, as we all must do so in life.  Wisely, most 'full-seaters' stay away from this discussion for one simple reason - they do not have a decent answer.  God speed.


    I think you read his posts thoroughly enough to know he didn't spend much time on that one, either.  :smirk:
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson


    Offline Classiccom

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    « Reply #77 on: September 01, 2008, 08:29:00 PM »
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  • I just wanted to add that I tried the home alone method for about a month . "Pope" Ratzinger's visit to the USA made me want to barf. It took a non Catholic from India to convince me that a flawed institution like the SSPX is better than nothing at all. I just have to wise up and keep my mouth so that some semblance of unity can be preserved.

    Like I said before, you would be put in jail if you sold a car without brakes or warning lights. The anti church of today is too risky for anyone's soul. This is a special time where you have to use the critical thinking and spiritual discernment God has given you. If the bus driver gets drunk, its ok to push him on the floor and take the wheel. Today's traditionalists would rather let the bus crash rather than make an original move. People like to beat you over the head with the "infallible" stick, or say that your spirit of disunity can only be diabolical. I say unity with diabolical beliefs is not a good thing. Where was the spirit of unity when the money changers were driven out of the temple.? Certain behavior fits certain situations. A Good soldier will do what is necessary. A mutiny is the correct answer after finding out the captain is an enemy agent. You make a bad call, you pay the price.

    As far as the sheep and shepherd symbolism goes, if you can understand that the sheep are being led astray, that qualifies you as a potential shepherd. If the sheep follow your voice, than there is a good chance that Jesus Christ has influenced your voice to say the correct words. Maybe that is final lesson for Catholics. Instead of some sort of sociology course, Christianity needs the Spirit of God rather than just blind following of a catechism. no matter how good the catechism may be.

    So be of good cheer. We have a shipwreck on our hands, but there will be a few survivors. Don't make the swim to shore any harder than need be. (quit hitting me with that infallible oar!)

    ----------------------------------------------

      I am sure that will offend a few here. Its the best that this very flawed writer can understand. Just to bolster my opinion on Mr. Infallible , Pope Pius IX , I just read that he came from a very well to do (read elitist) family. (Mazeratti?) With the loss of the Papal states, He had to deal with the question of temporal power vs. spiritual power. An intersting tidbit after his death, his body was moved to a new resting place but an angry crowd of Romans attempted to throw his body into the Tiber. I wonder what that was all about.  

         I am not quite the anarchist you think I am. I have to admit I was wrong in the 60s when I believed pseudo scientist Paul Erlich rather than the Pope in regards to birth control. The Catholic Church has the only true doctrine on salvation.  The rambling point is that there are vital Catholic truths that need to be preserved. If you love the truth, I think that you have to admit there is a lot of housecleaning that needs to be done.  The Day of the Lord seems to be the only remedy to accomplish that task.

    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #78 on: September 01, 2008, 08:39:28 PM »
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  • Here is what it is all about--A group of Communist Revolutionary thugs attempted to desecrate the relics of the saintly Pope Pius IX.

    Without the Infallible Constitution of Holy Church there is nothing but anarchy. And you might consider getting the Popes name correct--Mastai-Ferretti.

    If you are serious I would recommend Hales biography of Pio Nono and Fr Cuthbert-Butlers book on the Vatican Council
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Cletus

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    « Reply #79 on: September 02, 2008, 12:14:39 AM »
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  • The idea is that the Church of Christ is a supernatural institution with a supernatural principle of unity.

    There should be no question of fallible human beings "keeping up a semblance of unity."

    What's wanted is the real thing. Not a semblance. And the real thing cannot be faked just by following the right rubrics with your mystic incantations.

    To a great extent Catholic reaction to Vatican II has been a matter of false, utterly unspiritual folk wisdom and not of doctrine or faith or piety. That's why we hear so-called Novus Ordo conservatives compare Traditionalist separatists to rats leaving a sinking ship. Or, we hear more generic good Catholic soldiers say that the Church's dirty laundry should not be aired in public, and that proper Catholic Team Spirit demands that we all smile along with out Head Guy in Rome and say that the New Pentecost is a roaring success.

    The rules that govern the camaraderie of a frat house should not be applied to the Church of God.

    You are bound to find more than "some" Catholics at a Traditional message board who will be offended by Pope Pius IX's being referred to as "Mr Infallible."

    There is nothing sinister about a pope's having come from the upper class.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #80 on: September 02, 2008, 09:21:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    I think you read his posts thoroughly enough to know he didn't spend much time on that one, either.  :smirk:


    Righto, good lady! :cowboy:  God be with you.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Classiccom

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    « Reply #81 on: September 03, 2008, 07:47:37 AM »
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  • From Cletus

    You are bound to find more than "some" Catholics at a Traditional message board who will be offended by Pope Pius IX's being referred to as "Mr Infallible."

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    You got that one right Cletus.

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F01EED71030F93BA15755C0A9669C8B63&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

    Italian Jєωs Denounce Vatican's Decision to Beatify Pius IX

    By ALESSANDRA STANLEY
    Published: June 28, 2000

    To Vatican historians, Pius IX was the pope who locked papal infallibility and the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary into church doctrine.

    But to Italian Jєωs, Pius IX was the pope who in 1858 abducted 6-year-old Edgardo Mortara from his Jєωιѕн parents in Bologna, then a papal state, and raised him in Rome as a Catholic -- an act that was the Elian Gonzalez case of its era and became an international cause celebre.

    It is perhaps not surprising, then, that Italian Jєωs are in a fury over the Vatican's decision to beatify Pius IX in September. Beatification is the next to last step to sainthood.

    At a symposium on Pius IX held today in Rome, Amos Luzzatto, president of the Union of the Italian Jєωιѕн Communities, said, ''The Mortara case is a wound in the body and spirit of Italian Jєωs that has yet to be healed.''

    The cause of Pius IX is a fainter echo of the controversy over the Vatican's effort to put Pope Pius XII, who has been accused of not speaking out forcefully enough about the h0Ɩ0cαųst during World War II, on the path to sainthood. As with that issue, the cause of Pius IX is a battle of irreconcilably clashing memories. To Vatican officials Pius IX was a martyr to 19th-century anticlericism who is being unfairly judged by contemporary mores.

    But to many Jєωs he symbolizes the open anti-Semitism of the Roman Catholic Church before the Second Vatican Council of 1962-65.

    Pope John Paul II, who in May prayed at the Western Wall in Jerusalem, has made reconciliation with Jєωs a hallmark of his papacy. For many Jєωs the beatification of Pius IX represents a baffling step backward. After lobbying by Jєωιѕн groups worldwide, the Vatican quietly put aside plans to beatify Pius XII this year alongside Pope John XXIII, who is revered by Catholics and Jєωs alike as the pope who ushered in the reforms and interfaith reconciliation of the Second Vatican Council.

    Instead, in February the Vatican announced the beatification of Pius IX, who ordered the First Vatican Council in 1869. His beatification process was begun in 1907 and preparation was completed in 1984, but it was put on hold because the Vatican felt that he could be seen as a symbol of opposition to Italian unity.

    Msgr. Carlos Liberati, the Vatican official overseeing the cause of Pius IX, denied that the 19th-century pope's beatification had been revived to provide political balance to John XXIII, a pope championed by liberal Catholics.

    ''The church does not use scales like a pharmacist or a goldsmith,'' Monsignor Liberati said. The two popes, he said, ''represent different modes of sanctity.''

    But Pius IX is certainly a conservative's pope. His 32-year-reign is the longest in the church's history, and in some ways it was the last of a vanished world order.

    The papacy was stripped of its temporal powers, states and most of its property in 1870 under the Risorgimento, the 19th-century movement that united Italy from a quilt of tiny kingdoms, republics and foreign-occupied territories. Pius IX, who died in 1878, spent his last years a prisoner behind Vatican walls, reviled by Italian nationalists.

    His reign began in 1846 on a more progressive note. One month into his papacy, he declared an amnesty for political prisoners. In 1848 he ordered that the gates to the Jєωιѕн ghetto in Rome be knocked down.

    But Europe at that time was swept by revolutionary movements that threatened the power of the Roman Catholic Church. Pius IX wrote his first encyclical in 1846, condemning Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and communism.

    It was the Mortara case of 1858 that most marked his papacy outside the church. On June 23, papal guards arrived at the home of the Mortara family and took away Edgardo, one of their eight children. The parents bitterly objected, but the church contended that an illiterate Catholic servant had secretly baptized Edgardo when he was gravely ill.

    Canon law at that time required the church to take religious charge of any person baptized in the Catholic faith, regardless of the parents' wishes.

    The boy was taken to a Catholic boarding school in Rome and was adopted by Pius IX, who adamantly refused to return him to his family, despite a fervent international campaign.

    David I. Kertzer, who wrote a book in 1997 about the scandal, ''The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara'' (Knopf), argued that the backlash against Pius IX's act was a critical element in the collapse of support for papal rule. The boy, who entered a seminary at age 13, became a Catholic priest, and he died in Belgium in 1940.

    ''I have a direct knowledge of Pius IX's nefariousness,'' said Elena Mortara, a professor of American literature at the University of Rome and a great-granddaughter of one of Edgardo's sisters. ''It's not just about Edgardo. It's a question of the objective situation of depriving Jєωs of their civil rights in Rome. That in itself is serious enough to stop this beatification.''

    Monsignor Liberati said that Pius IX had merely followed church doctrine of his time and that the event had been used by 19th-century Masons and nationalists to discredit the church.

    ''If we focus on this minor fact, we cannot understand this great pope,'' he said. ''The church has tried everything to improve relations with the Jєωs. But they don't forgive us the slightest thing.''

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    p.s. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Remember Pius IX's
          example being used by the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr as they
          take custody of Christian children and adopt them into an
          antichrist society.




    Offline Cletus

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    « Reply #82 on: September 03, 2008, 10:42:18 AM »
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  • One of the reasons why Catholics should read the Gospels frequently, and not be content with telling their beads and memorizing their catechism, is that only from familiarity with the Gospels does one get to know Jesus as He truly was as opposed to the way the Modern World would have Him.

    There is a seemingly "ruthless" quality to Him.

    "Leave the dead to bury their dead."

    "Force them to come to My feast."

    "Leave wife and children..."

    Our Catholic Sense should be supernatural. It should be Holy. It should not be a matter of a gut attachment to a certain institution with neat rituals to which we are attached for old times' sake or out of superstitious fear of the Guy Upstairs.

    When we deal with Supreme Pontiffs in Church History we are on sacred ground. We can't be bad mouthing them in all directions, shooting from the hip.

    In the Mortara case, there might be a thousand "human" details about which we more enlightened and humanistic Twenty First century folk could be rightly critical. One doubts that a bunch of nineteenth century Italians were as considerate towards the Jєωιѕн people involved as they might well have been. But it is wrong for any Catholic to give the impression that it's a given that the behavior of Pope Pius IX in the sad and delicate matter was improper, much less unchristian or antichristian.

    Christ comes first. Christ is the King. Christ rules. Our thoughts about Him and His way have to be shaped by supernatural Catholic Faith.

    Jesus of Nazareth, albeit parabolically, spoke what seems to be relish about having the enemies of God slain in front of Him.

    I still think that Jesus is very different from Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot.

    Pope Pius IX is very different from the Masonic and Illuminati and One World order elite.

    It is Of Faith that Christ gave the sword of government to His Church.


    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #83 on: September 03, 2008, 01:10:39 PM »
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  • Children of the 21st century being adapted to anti-christ society is the complete opposite of Pius IX attempting to convert the world to christianity. Only a classic communist would attempt to spin the Mortara case into a concatenation of events that accuses a great Pope of nefarious activity.

    I would suggest actually reading mr Kertzers very informative books. Edgardo(later Fr) Mortara was never forced to do anything against his will and in fact refused to go back to his own anti-christ family by choice.

    He later described his own brother as an assassin of Christ when the latter took part in the Italian occupation of Rome.

    Edgardo's father was later involved in the murder of a christian woman.

    Looks like mr classicom(like mr MS) needs to get his facts in order.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #84 on: September 03, 2008, 01:33:00 PM »
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  • Mr Kertzers other books(Popes Against the Jєωs and Prisoner Of The Vatican) are also of interest. He is the type of Judaic who does not reject the Roman Church out of malice but soley out of ignorance. Because of this he actually tends to support Catholic thinking without even knowing what he is doing. He also supplies a spendid refutation to the charge that Cardinal Rampolla was a 'secret occult mason and in the OTO'.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #85 on: September 03, 2008, 06:24:43 PM »
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  • It is also important to note that Edgardo was almost 7 yrs old(the age of consent) when rescued by the Pope. By the time he had to make up his mind on what to do he WAS of the age of consent. Only through Jєωιѕн eyes can the Vatican be accused of impropriety in this case. The child chose of his own free will to be a Catholic.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #86 on: September 03, 2008, 06:48:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    He is the type of Judaic who does not reject the Roman Church out of malice but solely out of ignorance.


    Unless he was raised in a cave, and continued there whilst writing and publishing, it is likely there was at least a marginal influence of prejudicial sentiment involved.  While this might not be actual malice, it is not the same as ignorance, either.  God speed.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Cletus

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    « Reply #87 on: September 03, 2008, 06:54:10 PM »
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  • Not through only Jєωιѕн eyes. Through the eyes of every group of people in the world, including Catholics. Though maybe some Shiite Mohammedans would be able to appreciate the principle involved.

    Maybe it's a bit much to speak about the "free will" of a seven year old. Or of someone who is still six years old "making up his mind" to be a Roman Catholic over the objections of his parents.

    We don't have to be inhuman and pretend that it produces in us no pang of sympathy when we read that soldiers showed up at the door of a family's home and whisked away their little boy for reasons the family the could not comprehend. The whole convoluted affair was a human tragedy.

    The history of the Catholic Church is not such that we may safely presume that the Mortara case was well handled on the Catholic side.

    I presume the opposite. That the Catholics involved (keeping His Holiness apart) behaved like a bunch of heartless creeps. Maybe I would be pleasantly surprised if I studied the case and found that this presumption is groundless. Either way, the Catholic principle holds. Little Edgaro had to be led in the way of salvation once he got started up in it in his freakish way.






    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #88 on: September 03, 2008, 07:07:28 PM »
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  • Cletus--Have you read the book? I believe the case was handled correctly by the Church and you cannot seperate the Pope from the actions of everyone else because it was Pius who who ordered the child resued.

    The Christian faith was explained to the boy and it was his own free will to stay with the Pope--period. How this can be described as a tragedy is beyond me.

    It is my recommendation that all read mr Kertzers books. His father was a friend of rabbi Zoli's and defended him against other judaics when Zolli converted to Catholicism. The twist here is that I suspect Zolli to have been a Marrano.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Cletus

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    « Reply #89 on: September 03, 2008, 07:45:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: roscoe
    He is the type of Judaic who does not reject the Roman Church out of malice but solely out of ignorance.


    Unless he was raised in a cave, and continued there whilst writing and publishing, it is likely there was at least a marginal influence of prejudicial sentiment involved.  While this might not be actual malice, it is not the same as ignorance, either.  God speed.


    "Marginal" might be putting it too kindly. And the malice can be rank if there is a question of directly denying Christ or ever finding fault with Catholic doctrine and morality.

    Yes. The "ignorance" excuse is wearing thin.

    But to address the part about this one man's simply rejecting the Roman church. About not being a member of the Roman church? Not being a member of the Catholic Club?

    What on earth is wrong about rejecting the Roman church?

    The Jєωιѕн guy is supposed to know how to separate Eternal Holy Rome from the Antichrist Rome of today which has lost the Faith? When not a Catholic alive can do so?

    The point is that the Jєωιѕн guy is right to reject the Roman church.

    Rejecting the Roman church is an act of purest religion.

    But there is the Church of the Ages. True. What signs does that Church show forth to souls today? What exactly would be the Motives of Credibility which we would propose to Jєωs today where conversion to the True Church is concerned? You're only as good as your latest supernaturally cogent display of Unity and Holiness and Catholicism.

    The Roman church of our times is a perpetual prodigy of unholy chaos. (But it's all too catholic. You can't get far enough away from it on the face of the earth. If you go to the deepest, darkest jungle the "pope" will be there encouraging liturgical abuses involving such public indecency as one might expect in the jungle.)

    The burden is on Catholics to say that they mean the abstract Church of the Ages when they speak TODAY of the Roman church.

    We should be horrified at the prospect of our misleading souls into imagining that the Roman church of TODAY is the Church of Christ.

    Of course, everyone is obliged to work out some sort of crisis, emergency relationship to the Church of the Ages which God in His mercy might accept as Church membership.