Author Topic: "He who hears you, hears Me..." (Read 20375 times)

Cletus · « **Reply #50 on:** August 19, 2008, 11:36:58 PM »

If you are a true son of Tradition are you obligated to accept Vatican II in the Light of Tradition? Nope? Yep?

May you simply reject it across the board as a carnival of apostasy and heresy? Nope? Yep?

It's okay for entertainment purposes to be sententiously folksy. But it's no argument.

MichaelSolimanto · « **Reply #51 on:** August 20, 2008, 12:00:43 AM »

Quote from: Cletus

Are you obligated to view the likes of Karol Wojtyla and Josef Ratzinger as the Vicars of Christ?

How does that answer the question of how that endangers my salvation? The opposite though runs true as well, are you obligated to deny the vicars of Christ and die before the judgment seat of God? I would rather side with caution and pray for them rather than do something which DOES risk my immortal soul, namely, to deny the Vicar of Christ.

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Are you obligated to show respect and docility towards Vicars of Christ insofar as they, say, beatify folks and declare certain new liturgical forms to be the Church's ORDINARY forms?

Again, am I obliged to go to those events, liturgies, or ask for the intercession of those beatified for salvation? Nope.

Is there any proposition I have to assent to in Vatican II which is not previous doctrine or dogma which if I reject I risk eternal damnation? Nope. As a matter of fact there is not one proposition in Vatican II that is novel that I'm obliged to assent to intellectually or risk my salvation. Here's the proof:

"In view of the conciliar practice and the pastoral purpose of the present council, this sacred Synod defines matters of faith or morals as binding on the Church only when the Synod itself openly declares so" [Ex Actis Ss. Oecuмenici Concilii Vaticani II, Notificationes Factae ab Exc.mo Secretario Generali Ss. Concilii in Congregatione Generali CXXIII diei XVI Nov. MCMLXIV].

Believe it or not, you are proving my point. Nothing you can point out in any circuмstance which is novel is something I'm obliged to obey for salvation. If anything proves that the Holy Ghost is guiding the Church through this insanity there you have it and therefore you are proving, rather than disproving, that the Church is still present and visible in Rome.

Since you found this to be so upsetting to respond twice, can you show me where as a Catholic I can believe that there aren't any bishops with ordinary jurisdiction and still call the Church visible? If you reply that you never said or claimed that, which is fine, name me one member of the hierarchy you pray that God leads to help souls to Heaven who has ordinary jurisdiction. I want his name and the diocese/area he is the pastor of souls.

If not Christ left the Church didn't He since He gave us no official way of knowing "He who hears you hears me" through a visible chain of command, a belief every theologian who was orthodox has always taught and believed.

Cletus · « **Reply #52 on:** August 20, 2008, 01:00:28 AM »

I have not proven any of your points, Mr Solimanto.

The reason why your thinking on these matters is so dreadfully skewed is that you think it's "all about YOU."

No, YOU don't have to pray to Blessed John XXIII.

Yes, you ARE obligated to avoid involvement of any kind with an institution that mocks God to the extent of proposing such an apocalyptically wicked creature for veneration.

You MIGHT be spared Hell if it is Grave Fear or being a simpleton which keeps you in thrall to the leaders of the Vatican II cult.

You ARE obliged to consider the dignity of the human intellect in THIS world (which is so outraged by the untruths which prop up Dear Holy Father as Antichrist theologizing) and not put everything in the conveniently iffy context of what you imagine I may imagine about the next world.

Concern for Truth, just for the sake of God Who is Truth, should precede a parochial fixation on one's own salvation.

It is inane to pass from a reference to "caution" to the notion of "praying for" the Vatican II church top leadership. It's an abnormal thought process. (Normal among Traditionalists, though.) No, the idea is that you FOLLOW and OBEY and HEED AS YOU HEED CHRIST the Vicar of Christ. Your "praying for" him is beside the point. You may pray for Josef Ratzinger as a heretical Mozart lover who needs conversion all you like.

Opposing the Ordinary Form of the Mass as proposed by the Vicar of Christ does not put your salvation in danger? You may ignore and denounce and mock him will-nilly as long as you piously stipulate that it is the Vicar of Christ whom you are ignoring and denouncing and mocking?

YOUR managing to take a pious pass on involvement in Catholic reality solves nothing. The only thing that matters is that you insist for some ungodly reason on claiming that it is the Vicar of Christ and his visible fellow bishops who are opening the gates of hell and making all hell break loose on earth.

You've heard ANY Conciliar pope or bishop as you hear Christ since you became a Traditional Catholic? I doubt that you have. How on earth has Christ ever had a day's luck with THEIR visibility? What good does it do Him or you or me or any soul on earth? Those Modernists, those Masons, those Liberals, those sons of the Revolution who, according to Archbishop Lefebvre, have been working to dechristianize society, souls, the Church?

But no one is OBLIGED to be dechristianized? That's awful nice to know! Someone should inform the Universal Visible Church at once. It seems not to have grasped that point.

I think we all know what the real issue is here. The mechanics of the hope of a rescue. The so-called Solution. I grant that there is no hope on earth for a Catholic Restoration unless there is a living link to the Catholic Past. I grant that the stricter sedevacantists are destroyers of that hope.

The answer is simple. There is no hope for an earthly restoration. Our only hope is in heaven now. Things are shot all to hell in this world. The task of believers is to accept this reality with good grace and head held high. Otherwise your life will be a degrading and painful lurch from one idiotic mirage or obsession to the next.

Such as, oh, a REAL bishop of the Visible Church who despite his love of the Novus Ordo spoke SO beautifully of Our Lady that he made a glorious new Pope Pius seem almost tangible... except that then he lauded The Theology of the Body in a way that made even Uncle Max, a Freethinker, blush in scandalized shame...

Orthodox theologians, you say? They have always allowed for an apparent pope who is no pope at all, having fallen from office under his own heretical steam, with no need of declaration.

It is not "cautious" to claim that a man whom you yourself dismiss as a false teacher is the Supreme Teacher of the Faithful.

It is reckless.

It is really, really dumb.

MichaelSolimanto · « **Reply #53 on:** August 20, 2008, 09:45:32 AM »

Quote from: Cletus

I have not proven any of your points, Mr Solimanto.

Yes you have.

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The reason why your thinking on these matters is so dreadfully skewed is that you think it's "all about YOU."

Read the first post in the thread. GV asked us as individuals how we live in the current state. If you can't read the context of what I was answering stop acting like a 4 year old when get smacked down intellectually.

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No, YOU don't have to pray to Blessed John XXIII.

Thanks for proving my point.

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You MIGHT be spared Hell if it is Grave Fear or being a simpleton which keeps you in thrall to the leaders of the Vatican II cult.

While you start your own cult of Catholics who are without a hierarchy and believe in a non-Magisterial Catholic society? Sorry, but your saccharine phraseology is getting played out, and the contrary explanation of what you believe is being left out isn't it.

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Concern for Truth, just for the sake of God Who is Truth, should precede a parochial fixation on one's own salvation.

I think this one line proves to me I'm wasting my time since I've never said the contrary and you continue to make intellectual propositions which are not contrary to anything I said, nor have I even hinted at the following, and yet you constantly do it.

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Opposing the Ordinary Form of the Mass as proposed by the Vicar of Christ does not put your salvation in danger? You may ignore and denounce and mock him will-nilly as long as you piously stipulate that it is the Vicar of Christ whom you are ignoring and denouncing and mocking?

Since logic isn't your strong suit I'll make it easier, but I'll compound the syllogism to save myself time:
-The Novus Ordo is not a doctrinal/dogmatic definition nor is it a matter of morals
-Only those things that have to do with doctrine/dogma and morals must I assent to intellectually to be Catholic
-Ergo, I'm not bound to assent to remain my Catholic identity

Historically what do you make of the 2 Eastern saints who opposed 2 different Vicars of Christ on the date of Easter to unify it with the West? Do they fit the anti-Christ/cult like movement you've been preaching or do you still pretend that history was just about people who just fawned over every decision of their ordinary and the Holy Father?

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You've heard ANY Conciliar pope or bishop as you hear Christ since you became a Traditional Catholic? I doubt that you have.

Actually JPII address to the youth in Mexico City in 99 was amazing and it was like hearing Christ speak on earth. I've never been a fan of the man since I came to know what he did to the Church, but this speech defies your claim. He told every young man and women not to pursue a career until they first pursue religious life and "cast their nets" into the sea to get a great catch of Our Blessed Lord.

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But no one is OBLIGED to be dechristianized? That's awful nice to know! Someone should inform the Universal Visible Church at once. It seems not to have grasped that point.

You are missing the entire point for your position. It boils down to how can someone remain Catholic and follow Benedict XVI. I answered that. It doesn't come down to me, but anyone who follows the syllogism I provided above to any problem we are facing.

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Orthodox theologians, you say? They have always allowed for an apparent pope who is no pope at all, having fallen from office under his own heretical steam, with no need of declaration.

The theologians you point to have different OPINIONS on what to do. There is no consensus with or without a declaration between the theologians themselves. Suarez and Torquemada believe a council must be called. Still, they are just opinions I'm not obliged to believe, but I am obliged to believe that the Church is visible. Still, no theologian has taught there is no visible hierarchy with jurisdiction. You believe in a fictional, mythical reality which is filled with just a few angry people who are aggressive, rude, discourteous, and get kicked off every message board for good reason (unless they tolerate it... like here).

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It is not "cautious" to claim that a man whom you yourself dismiss as a false teacher is the Supreme Teacher of the Faithful.

Should I have denied John XXII if we went in a time machine? Should he have to be re-elected? Your beliefs are, and I quote, "reckless... really, really dumb."

Cletus · « **Reply #54 on:** August 20, 2008, 12:58:39 PM »

What good does the Visibility of the Conciliar church do Christ or the world or souls?

About as much good as the visibility of the Austrian cardinal archbishop's filthy pictures of Christ, which he had Catholic children view in the name of Vatican II-style Engagement with Modern Culture.

The visibility of the Vatican II cult is a diabolical snare. It is blasphemous to make God its ultimate guarantor, as mainline Traditionalists do in their desperate lunacy.

SSPX adherents should be content to reason that the SSPX is visibility enough for the True Church, and stop proposing blasphemies supportive of the Conciliar church because of things about the marks of the Church that they read in old books and misunderstood.

Author Topic: &quot;He who hears you, hears Me...&quot; (Read 20375 times)

Author Topic: "He who hears you, hears Me..." (Read 20375 times)