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Author Topic: "He who hears you, hears Me..."  (Read 20189 times)

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"He who hears you, hears Me..."
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 10:07:58 AM »
GV never called Pope Pius XII "a shill for Modernism."

I was referrng to a thread in which a book by one Mary Martinez was being respectfully cited. I think that it is a fair epitome of her words on "Pacelli" to say that she dismisses him as "a hapless shill for Modernism, doomed to be so from birth."

I don't think that Pope Benedict XIII was alone in being "of questionable quality" in the long period between the death of Pope Pius V and the election of Pope Pius X. There was nepotism and destructive favoritism galore with more than a few of these unsainted Vicars of Christ. But their incompetence and sloth negatively affected only the running of the Vatican. The Kingdom of Heaven kept running A-OK.

When I say "maybe they were just unsaintly" I am seeking a reason as to why they were unsainted.

Innocent XI made it to Blessed, one must point out.

The issue under discussion here is alleged fault in the TEACHING of Pope Pius XII  which the faithful were (and are) bound to hear as being spoken by Christ. (I use the word fault and not error advisedly.)

I'm not blaming anyone for trying to thrash out the problem with that most problematic of popes: I'm just pointing out that the problem with him is with him as a TEACHER OF THE FAITHFUL, not just as a behind-the-scenes ecclesiastical player, in which capacity everyone from Leo XIII to Pius XII, everyone except Pius X, has been faulted by learned and pious Traditional Catholics. I've also suggested that Pope Pius XII has gotten a totally bum rap over his Mystical Body encyclical from Catholic authors with questionable sociopolitical views.

The real problems lie elsewhere. And they should be handled with the utmost delicacy. Claiming that "Pacelli" was theologically perverted beyond all hope of redemption from the time he was a little boy and that that explains his future career as an enemy of Christ is not exactly delicate.

Offline gladius_veritatis

  • Supporter
"He who hears you, hears Me..."
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 02:35:07 PM »
Quote from: Dulcamara
When the pope speaks infallibly, the Holy Ghost will not permit him to err, in which case we can certainly follow him. If he says, however, that generic beans taste better than name brand ones... that is not infallible, and therefore we needn't switch to plastic beans any time soon.


Thank you for pointing out the patently obvious.

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Infallibility is a wonderful thing. It's also why the Church has made it this long without being totally and completely corrupted. As a man the pope can say and do anything. But when he's speaking under the influence of the Holy Ghost, we can all rest assured he will be telling only the truth.


See my response above.

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It would be nice if the papacy meant that every pope is infallible all the time, and automatically a saint, but... hey, we can't have everything I guess...


No one is expecting such, and I personally would never desire such.

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One might also add that we have to follow the traffic laws, even if democrats make them. If at a party some important democrat simply SAYS, however, that tomorrow the speed limit will be 106 ... again, we don't have to listen to them, as they're not then speaking officially and with the full force of the government behind them.


This is not as germane as you might think.

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If only these things were understood as the common sense they are.


Although I appreciate the intention in your responding, you have done nothing to answer the question.

Even in other days when the Pope did not speak very often in an infallible capacity, you could still follow the teachings of his ordinary magisterium, keep the laws of Holy Church, and worship in the same way as the Pontiff - the way that God Himself laid down for us.  Now, you cannot do these things.  The V2 religion is completely antithetical to the Catholic religion.  If you follow it, if you "hear Benedict" and practice the religion he practices, you will go to hell.  That is a complete annihilation of Our Lord's promise, for it is meant to apply to the entire life of Holy Church, not merely the occasional ex cathedra statement.  Many people are born and die without hearing an infallible declaration.  Are they without a safe guide?  Of course not, for "He who hears you, hears Me..." is applicable to all times.  According to your thinking, Our Lord's words are only applicable once in a very long while.  The rest of the time, it is all up for grabs.

Can you, or can you not, practice the religion which V2, Benedict, and his V2 predecessors have taught and practiced?  Will such get you to heaven?

No, it will not, which is exactly why you resist it, holding fast to the old ways.  You are hearing Christ, and the Pontiffs of 1950+ years, but you are not hearing the V2 pontiffs.


Offline Matthew

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"He who hears you, hears Me..."
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 02:45:42 PM »
Quote from: gladius_veritatis
The #### above was, strangely, inserted in place of the Latin term for "filled see"; i.e., the See of Rome is, in fact, occupied by Benedict XVI.


I think that word got added to the "censored words list" back in the days of Dust-7, when he used it as an epithet against SSPX-followers. On the one hand, it's a technical term. On the other hand, it almost can't be used in a good sense, as the default position for a Catholic is s*deplenist.

It's like calling someone a meat-eater. I think every human being, by default, is willing to eat some kind of insect/fish/fowl/mammal meat -- unless they are distinguished by their complete abstinence from it, e.g., vegetarians, vegans, etc.

Matthew

"He who hears you, hears Me..."
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2008, 03:31:57 PM »
Quote from: gladius_veritatis


Although I appreciate the intention in your responding, you have done nothing to answer the question.

Can you, or can you not, practice the religion which V2, Benedict, and his V2 predecessors have taught and practiced?  Will such get you to heaven?


No, actually your question was:
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The gist of Our Lord's words is: If you listen to my representatives, you are listening to Me. Doing such, you will infallibly be on the right path.

How is it possible to say this about Benedict, his post-V2 predecessors, and the entire V2 Church, and its patently non-Catholic religion? If we followed the Benedict and his V2 religion most faithfully, would we not be on our way to perdition?


The answer is to to understand infallibility in the proper and true light, and to understand the word "obedience" in the true light, not as slavish zombie mentality, but as obedience where obedience is due... only for that which is right and good and true. I have heard since my childhood catechism days, that the Catholic church teaches that if someone tells you to do something wrong, it doesn't matter who it is, you don't listen. I don't recall it saying anything, though, about throwing the baby out with the bathwater, eg "if your parents say to do something wrong, from then on, totally disregard their authority and defy them in everything!" ... I don't recall that attitude in my Catholic instruction anywhere.

Now it's the pope. Well, is it shocking? Of course. Scandalous? Absolutely! But the fact of the matter is, the pope is, after all, still human. He is still capable of thinking and saying things that are bad. We as good Catholics are taught by our dear Mother Church not do do bad things, no matter who says them. However the Church never said such an incident is free license to overthrow the rightful and legitimate authority of that person, when they are acting within it's right and true capacities, such as when the pope says things that ARE Catholic, or gives orders we CAN follow.

That's the answer to the question you actually DID ask originally.

To answer your second question, since the "new religion" is something different from Catholicism, we are bound NOT to obey or follow it, absolutely. But where the head of the church acts within his rightful authority (teaching and ordering that which is right and good) then we must listen to him.

Once you disregard the wrong ideas on obedience and infallibility, the whole thing becomes quite simple. (The truth often has that effect.)

In this way, we can follow and respect the pope when he acts justly and rightly (telling only the truth, and commanding only that which is good), and not at all follow anything bad or false he may introduce.

Of course I'm sure you will probably just say "EHHH! Wrong answer!" and look for another, but... you asked, so I gave you a very reasonable and complete response to your questions. If you don't like them, well... I'm afraid I can't help you there.

"He who hears you, hears Me..."
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2008, 04:38:57 PM »
Dulcamera--I am a bit slow at times. Could you tell us clearly whether you accept the v2 'council' as legitimate and if you accept the 'popes' beg with john 23 as real? Just asking

Acc to Fr. Cuthbert Butler's book on the Vatican Council(the 1st and only Vatican Council), no infallible declaration has come from the Vatican since the dogmatic constitution issued by that same Council.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.HTM#4 and #6