And if most 'sedes' don't know of or agree with the Siri election and there are many diff 'sede'  theories, could you name a couple: what reason do they give for the Papacy being in so drastic a condition and the v2 anti-council?

IMO a line of illegal anti-popes sure seems like it would and could cause something like this.

Roscoe, you're getting as bad as I am with the one-right-after-another posts. Or have I been getting as bad as you? :scratchchin:

I indicated some of the different theories about some of the Vatican II popes. It's not as though the different sedevacantists are making things up as they go along. They are trying to relate the facts of the Vatican II Armageddon to the opinions of various weighty theologians as to apparent popes who are not popes because they are heretics.

I have never come across a sedevacantist who imagines that he has it all sewn up with no loose ends when it comes to explaining these things with Scholastic precision.

I have always thought that sedevacantists are strongest when they are following the "via negativa" and saying what is not and could not be the case with popes and the Church at any time: iffy canonizations by a true pope which one may mock and denounce willy-nilly, for example.

I think that what Pope Leo XIII said about opening up the Church's records to historians and letting the chips fall where they may would have been rather different had he envisioned thousands and thousands of laymen opining negatively in the open forum on, say, his own way of dealing with the Americanist crisis, and not just three or four white-bearded historians finding juicy tid-bits for tomes that hardly anyone would read.

Matthew,

While we have all profited immensely from dulcamara's thoughtful responses, would you please be so kind as to offer your own ideas about how "He who hears you, hears Me" actually applies to the V2 pontiff and pseudo-religion?

Even in the days of a Boniface, a Wolsey or a Spellman, at least you were correct in doing as they said.

Although it is possible there was a glitch that erased my other thread, I am presuming it was not so.  That said, I shall speak my mind, although it is unlikely that my comments will be received well.  

Matthew,

IF you have purposely avoided my sincere attempts to have a calm discussion on this point, in this thread or in the other I started that seems to have been deleted, by yourself I can only imagine, I have to call a spade a spade.  You, sir, are a coward.  In truth, you need not be, as I am not trying to pick a fight, exposing this or that hole in this or that position.  I genuinely want to know how you can possibly reconcile the ideas of the SSPX, and all trad "full seaters" with Our Lord's words.  I am not trying to grandstand, as I do not pretend to have all the answers myself.  However, it does not behoove Catholic gentlemen to avoid even engaging in discussion with those who disagree with them on important matters.  It helps no one, especially the one who will not even accept a calm and kindly offer to have such a discussion.  So be it.  God speed.

Eamon

I didn't delete any threads. Sometimes I move a thread to the "Crisis" sub-form where appropriate.

Only my wife and I have access to delete threads.

You can call me whatever you want. As a busy family man, I have more important PRACTICAL things to worry about in my life.

I used to spend more time arguing such issues, but now I see that it's hard enough to become a saint without taking on the Church's problems as well. Perhaps single people have the time for it -- I just know that I don't.

Sincerely,

Matthew

I used to spend more time arguing such issues, but now I see that it's hard enough to become a saint without taking on the Church's problems as well. Perhaps single people have the time for it -- I just know that I don't.

Thank you for your magnanimity and patience with a poor idiot. :wave:  Please see the other thread I started, which I somehow did not see anywhere before, wherein I publicly apologize to you.

As for the above, I certainly understand.  However, the central point is that one cannot work out one's salvation very well when one cannot even establish, or reasonably explain to themselves or others, the identity of Holy Church.  It is IMPOSSIBLE to do as Benedict does, or even do as he says, making it IMPOSSIBLE for him to be Christ's vicar.  This demonstrable fact, accepted implicitly by all who resist the V2 Pontiffs and their bogus religion, cannot be swept aside nonchalantly - duties or no duties.  God speed.