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Author Topic: "He who hears you, hears Me..."  (Read 20179 times)

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Offline gladius_veritatis

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"He who hears you, hears Me..."
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2008, 10:05:57 PM »
Quote from: Dulcamara
In this way, we can follow and respect the pope when he acts justly and rightly (telling only the truth, and commanding only that which is good), and not at all follow anything bad or false he may introduce.


While we all appreciate your sophistry in pretending that I somehow altered my question in any kind of substantial manner, you have still largely avoided giving anything like a straightforward answer.  I am neither surprised nor disappointed, as I have seen it literally hundreds of times.

In your words I have quoted above, do you not see that YOU are setting YOURSELF up as the arbiter of the question?  You are plainly NOT open to hearing him in a way that is consistent with 2000 years of Catholic behavior.  Offer more sophistry until the proverbial cows come home - many do - but it shall not change the reality.

It is not that I do not like your answer - which, btw, is anything but complete.  It totally sidesteps the issue - that a man CANNOT take the purported Roman Pontiff as a rule of faith, or the practice thereof.  Is this not a frightening fact?

"He who hears you, hears Me..."
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2008, 11:32:40 PM »
Quote from: gladius_veritatis
that a man CANNOT take the purported Roman Pontiff as a rule of faith, or the practice thereof.  Is this not a frightening fact?


Not at all. God is more powerful than the pope, and His religion cannot be corrupted. Under proper obedience, corruption or evil in any man, even the pope, is powerless against the incorruptible faith.

If the church and the true faith depended upon the virtue of the men who hold it's offices to exist and survive, there would (humanly speaking) surely be no church today. But because it is a divinely instituted thing, no amount of human corruption, even of it's authorities, can possibly corrupt, alter or kill it. The faith is not given the popes to change, but to transmit. The Catholic is therefore correct who recognizes BOTH... the divine grace and life of the true faith and it's incorruptible nature, AND the fallibility of every man (even the pope when he is not willfully exercising his infallibility).

The Catholic of a balanced and prudent mind will not be at all shocked (or at least not much) if the pope sins, or sins grievously. They know the pope sins. He's human. They know also not to follow him into sin. Such a Catholic has the privilege of being founded upon a rock, not tossed to and fro with the waves of confusion and uncertainty. He will follow the pope where the pope is right and where it is all right to follow him, and disobey him (in obedience to God) where the pope is wrong and it would be wrong to follow him. He needn't deny the office of the man because the man might be bad. (He would never dare judge the man, as only God can do.) The Catholic who has not neglected his own moral and theological education knows his faith well enough to know what it IS, and what it is NOT. He has good sense enough (by the help of God) to keep his own bearings regardless of what the Pope as man is, and the humility to obey when the man is right.

The king, even if bad, is still the king. The martyrs who died under the roman emperors, I'm sure, never once denied that the emperors were the emperors simply because they were pagan and wicked. Instead, they acknowledged by laying down their lives that his authority came from God, and that the office was what it was, regardless of the rottenness of the man in it. So, too, the sensible Catholic knows the pope is the pope, for better or for worse, and will for the love of God obey him when he is right, and in anything he can morally do so, and for the love of God again, disobey where he must, even as the martyrs obeyed the emperors in dying, but NOT in offering sacrifice to false gods. We can obey the pope in anything not contrary to God, even if we can't follow this new religion. He still carries the authority of God as pope, however good or bad he is as a man.


"He who hears you, hears Me..."
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2008, 12:13:15 AM »
It is not a question of a pope as man "sinning."

It is a question of a supposed pope AS pope teaching false doctrine and filling minds with false doctrine in the name of Christ and the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

It is very, very wrong to "make a lie." Doctrinal defections of putative popes cannot be blithely bundled off to the ho-hum category of "papal sin" alongside the "funny parties" of Alexander VI and that time Benedict XV rebuked his dangerously incompetent coach driver far too severely. (But it is edifying to know that the latter "sin" was atoned for when the Supreme Pontiff showed up at the poor man's door with a bottle of wine, or two cigars....)

We're not talking about papal sin.

Ignoring someone who points this out does not lend strength to a stubborn repetition of the untruth.

We are talking about papal or putative papal defection as regards Catholic Truth. There are rules about this one papal or putative papal "sin" which do not come into play even if a pope is guilty of mass murder or incompetent coachman lambasting.  

It's also wrong to mix supernatural apples with natural oranges. Roman pontiffs are not Roman emperors. And as a matter of fact, the same eminent Doctor of the Church who might have argued that such and such an Emperor might have been justly deposed and deemed Emperor no longer (and his head placed on a stick) might also have argued that such and such a putative pope is no pope at all, due to his teaching of heresy.

Deposing and killing an atrociously bad ruler is always an option for Catholics. So is rejecting an apparent pope as pope because of his teaching heresy.

I don't see what is so "sensible" about insisting on calling a Rock what one personally avoids like quicksand and the Plague.

The true Catholic idea of the pope is that you can trust EVERYTHING that he says in his capacity as pope.





Offline gladius_veritatis

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"He who hears you, hears Me..."
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2008, 12:20:37 AM »
Quote from: Dulcamara
The Catholic of a balanced and prudent mind will not be at all shocked (or at least not much) if the pope sins, or sins grievously. They know the pope sins. He's human.


Thank you for the profound insight, verbatim SSPX-isms and all.

Anyone with a brain would also see it thus.  The vulgar way of putting it would be...NO SH*T!

While your ability to repeat the SSPX party line is most impressive and entertaining, sort of like sitting in a room with a well-trained parakeet, it is plain that you do not intend to think seriously before giving a substantial answer to the matter at hand.  Good day.

Matthew,

You have surely seen this thread.  What say you?

Offline gladius_veritatis

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"He who hears you, hears Me..."
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2008, 12:23:46 AM »
Quote from: Cletus
We're not talking about papal sin.


I have my doubts that this statement will EVER register.

Quote
The true Catholic idea of the pope is that you can trust EVERYTHING that he says in his capacity as pope.


Yes, it is...but a bad king is still king, Cletus, and a bad father is still the father!  Don't you SEE??!?!!? :laugh2: