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Author Topic: "Fr" Isaac Relyea in Post Falls this week  (Read 1582 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: "Fr" Isaac Relyea in Post Falls this week
« Reply #60 on: Today at 08:51:29 AM »

Quote
SSPX = certain that they are always valid if done by the book.
Sedes = certain that they are always invalid. 
Us = certain that they are always doubtful.

Just to clarify the above, for everyone else who is reading.  Stubborn, your classification of the above 3 views is incorrect. 

1.  There are really only 2 views - positively doubtful or no doubt.  This is the crux of the issue -- do the new rites have positive/factual doubt?  Yes.
a.  The sspx admits there is doubt, but says the doubt is "minimized" when you use book A vs book B, C or D.
b.  The sspx ignores other doubts (deletion of the word "ut" in the ordination rite) and the episcopal/bishop consecration rite, which is a total joke and full of doubts.

2.  The Sedes say they are "always invalid" because they are speaking practically, i.e. how canon law tells us to act with doubtful sacraments (i.e. treat them as invalid).
a.  No Sede cleric is going to say that they are the Church, or that they are infallible, or that they know with 'moral certainty'.  Come on.  That's not their argument.
b.  Their argument is based on practice (i.e. how do we act?).  Which comes from canon law.

3.  The "3rd" way of thinking is no different than the Sede mode of thinking.  Positive doubt exists.  What then?
a.  Canon Law says that when there is positive doubt (i.e. doubt based on facts), then we MUST take the safest course.
b.  We are not allowed to attend, support or use doubtful sacraments, WHEN THERE ARE NON-DOUBTFUL SACRAMENTS AVAILABLE.
c.  To use doubtful sacraments (when non-doubtful/certain sacraments are available) is a GRAVE sin.
d.  Ergo, practically speaking, canon law FORCES us to treat doubtful sacraments AS INVALID.  They are off-limits, under penalty of grave sin.
e.  You can only use doubtful sacraments IN AN EMERGENCY.
f.  This would also apply to the masses of doubtful priests, which is why the Indult is off-limits and a grave sin.  You cannot attend doubtful masses, by doubtful priests, without sinning, per canon law. 

So there is no difference, practically, (i.e. real world, how we act) between the Sede view and your 3rd view (i.e. certain there are doubts).

There are only 2 views:

1.  New-sspx/Indult/V2 view -- the new rites are valid, with small exceptions.
2.  Traditional view -- the new rites are doubtful and (per canon law) off-limits and treated as invalid.

Re: "Fr" Isaac Relyea in Post Falls this week
« Reply #61 on: Today at 09:03:46 AM »
The Bugnini revamped "sacraments" can only be doubtful at best.
Did anyone here think his motives were anything less?

Destroy the Mass
Destroy the Sacraments ( Holy Orders/ Episcopal Consecration)
Destroy the Papacy

The proof is in the pudding.

AI:
Yes, Archbishop Annibale Bugnini played a central role in the revision of the rites of the sacraments.  As Secretary of the Consilium for the Implementation of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, he directed the comprehensive overhaul of the Roman Pontifical and other ritual books, which included the sacraments, following the Second Vatican Council.
  • Leadership Role: Bugnini served as the primary architect and coordinator for the Consilium, leading specialized study groups (coetus) responsible for drafting the new rites for baptism, marriage, and other sacraments.
  • Scope of Reform: The reforms extended beyond the Mass to include the Liturgia Horarum (Liturgy of the Hours) and the revised rites for all sacraments, replacing the previous Roman ritual books with new vernacular exemplars.
  • Historical Context: His involvement in liturgical revision began earlier, with the 1955 reform of Holy Week and the 1962 revision of the Roman Missal and Breviary, establishing the continuity of his influence on the Church's sacramental liturgy through the post-conciliar era.



Re: "Fr" Isaac Relyea in Post Falls this week
« Reply #62 on: Today at 09:22:01 AM »
Ok, so Pax, Stubborn and others have provided some persuasive arguments that the new rites of ordination are highly doubtful. 
I therefore ask how does this figure into God's plan for the salvation of souls that there are so many traditionally minded Catholics who
are going to fraudulent priests? These are people who have left the novus ordo, like myself, and now find themselves with the
daunting task of trying to find a valid priest among the already small number of self proclaimed ones.
It's seriously looking like homealoneism is about the only recourse depending upon one's location

Offline Meg

Re: "Fr" Isaac Relyea in Post Falls this week
« Reply #63 on: Today at 09:41:34 AM »

d.  Ergo, practically speaking, canon law FORCES us to treat doubtful sacraments AS INVALID.  They are off-limits, under penalty of grave sin.

In other words, according to you, the Catholic Church is gone, kaput, extinguished forever. And she can never come back. The Church now only exists in sedevacantist chapels, Resistance chapels, and some SSPX chapels. 

There's no way to come back from having no valid sacraments. 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: "Fr" Isaac Relyea in Post Falls this week
« Reply #64 on: Today at 10:25:28 AM »
Just to clarify the above, for everyone else who is reading.  Stubborn, your classification of the above 3 views is incorrect. 
No, yours is incorrect because far as you are concerned, your implications keep insisting that there is absolutely no doubt about it - all NO ordinations are certainly invalid. That is the hill you're willing to die on. Period. Why you don't just come out and say it I don't know.

Look Pax, if we are not morally certain of invalidity 100% of the time, if there is any doubt at all involved, then that means that at least sometimes there is validity, which means that there are times that the NO ordinations are valid. In one breath you speak as tho you agree with this, in the next breath you turn around and speak against it - which is it?

The SSPX claims validity  "when done by the book" and that any and all doubt must be proven to make the ordination invalid - THAT'S the Church's rule, that's just the way it has always worked, and for as evil as all things NO are, it still works that way as regards the 3 sacraments that cannot be repeated - and there is nothing anyone can do about it except investigate and make a determination - which is the procedure that the SSPX follows.