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Author Topic: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass  (Read 4493 times)

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Offline Jr1991

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Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2024, 09:15:05 PM »
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  • This man understands Traditionalism better than the SSPX leadership.

    You simply can't have it both ways. You either follow the Pope (and pray the same Mass as he does), or you are against him.

    Whatever side you are on the Sedevacantist debate, any real Traditionalist understands that you can't be a Traditionalist and be friendly with the modernist Pope.
    Exactly 

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #16 on: June 18, 2024, 09:54:17 PM »
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  • Sounds like you're saying the choice is between sedevacantism and schism.

    The old SSPX and present day Resistance position is a kind of "middle of the road" alternative between the two extremes that you put.

    Abp. Lefebvre on his later years was quite convinced that he could not be a friend of the Pope, yet, he was not a Sedevacantist.


    Offline EdgarLovesMary

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #17 on: June 18, 2024, 10:11:42 PM »
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  • Strangely enough, I think Grillo mopped the floor with them, especially taking into account he is foundation is made of sand. Don't get me wrong, he makes many outrageous and false statements and especially fumbles and deflects questions 3 and 4, but the rest are pretty strong statements which poke holes in the indultists argumentation and show the weakness of their position.

    He won me over in a sense from the very first answer, which I think is the best of the bunch at summarizing the core issue. As Cekada would say, they want their pope and to beat him too.
    The first answer is pretty weak to my eyes. Of course, I'm neither a liturgist nor a theologian.
     
    I see a glaring logical error and profound bias in Grillo's simultaneous criticism of Summorum Pontificuм and praise of Traditions Custodes. Quo Primum he simply ignores. 

    Offline andy

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #18 on: June 18, 2024, 11:06:06 PM »
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  • Very curious how FSSP and similar will react ...

    Offline FarmerWife

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #19 on: June 18, 2024, 11:28:27 PM »
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  • The Mass I attended was cancelled along with all Latin Masses run by the diocese. During the C-sickness, the n.o. was shut down except online.  I went nearly three years without.  Now, I drive 3+ hours one-way over the border into another country.  It’s expensive so I have to save up gas and toll money.  I go once a month. 
    Same here and it's difficult with a baby. It's sad that at one time, all the small town rural parishes had a Latin Mass and if there was one technically where we live, it would be a 30-45 min drive which would be really nice. And you have to make sure you have a reliable vehicle and the bathroom breaks/gas add time.


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #20 on: June 19, 2024, 02:22:27 AM »
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  • The first answer is pretty weak to my eyes. Of course, I'm neither a liturgist nor a theologian.
     
    I see a glaring logical error and profound bias in Grillo's simultaneous criticism of Summorum Pontificuм and praise of Traditions Custodes. Quo Primum he simply ignores.
    Sure, but my point is if you close your eyes to the context and the fact that you know he's wrong, he's more coherent and convincing than the insultists.

    Just pretend Traditionis Custodes banned the NO and not the Mass and read the answer again, it would all hold true.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #21 on: June 19, 2024, 01:55:31 PM »
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  • I wonder?  In Phoenix, FSSP Mater Miseri Cordea has St. Edward the confessor chapel now for Sunday Mass. Yet, they have a brand-new colossal church being built right now. St. Edward the Confessor chapel will become a Hall, they say.

    Hm? What do they know for  being so quick to build a brand -new "building"?  Phoenix dioceses has a seminary, old homes remodeled and the new seminarians will go to Phoenix(?) college and go home, maybe 6 to a home and Abra Cadabra ,in 2030 new clergy!

    So, what is going on?  I think Post Falls Idaho is making a new church too.  Am I right for thinking this?

    Offline pre1962

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #22 on: June 21, 2024, 03:12:53 PM »
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  • Very curious how FSSP and similar will react ...
    I thought this Vatican made an exception for the FSSP. There is one FSSP parish in Los Angeles and one in San Diego.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #23 on: June 21, 2024, 04:32:41 PM »
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  • I agree. Hopefully Bergoglio and the boys will excommunicate the SSPX as well.

    I think it's very unlikely ... unless Jorge's in one of his "moods".  SSPX is part of the plan, though they did lose Agent Huonder this past year.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #24 on: June 22, 2024, 12:55:39 PM »
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  • I think it's very unlikely ... unless Jorge's in one of his "moods".  SSPX is part of the plan, though they did lose Agent Huonder this past year.

    I think Bergoglio is already planning on giving them a new “approved” bishop, possibly the SSPX’s choice, but consecrated in the new rite. He won’t let that big prize go!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Texana

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #25 on: June 22, 2024, 01:06:50 PM »
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  • I think Bergoglio is already planning on giving them a new “approved” bishop, possibly the SSPX’s choice, but consecrated in the new rite. He won’t let that big prize go!
    Dear Quo vadis Domine,

    Another option might be to use the "traditional" rite of 1962 for consecration with the Principal Consecrator being a novus-ordo-rite "Cardinal", as in Parolin or even Mueller.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #26 on: June 22, 2024, 01:10:50 PM »
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  • Dear Quo vadis Domine,

    Another option might be to use the "traditional" rite of 1962 for consecration with the Principal Consecrator being a novus-ordo-rite "Cardinal", as in Parolin or even Mueller.

    Yes, definitely a possibility.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #27 on: June 22, 2024, 03:03:16 PM »
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  • Dear Quo vadis Domine,

    Another option might be to use the "traditional" rite of 1962 for consecration with the Principal Consecrator being a novus-ordo-rite "Cardinal", as in Parolin or even Mueller.

    But if there were the usual three consecrators, and at least one of them had been consecrated in the traditional rite, then, arguendo, there would be no doubt as to the validity.  Am I right?

    And am I correct in assuming that three bishops do the consecration as a kind of "quality check" to ensure that the consecration is valid, even in traditional practice?  There is always the remote possibility, taking the Novus Ordo factor entirely out of the equation, that one of the bishops could have had an invalid baptism (the apocryphal story about the nanny who baptized a baby in milk "because he was just so sweet" comes to mind, never mind the question as to why a nanny would be baptizing a baby in the first place), could have some kind of internal reservation against conferring the sacrament, or what have you.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #28 on: June 22, 2024, 07:04:42 PM »
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  • But if there were the usual three consecrators, and at least one of them had been consecrated in the traditional rite, then, arguendo, there would be no doubt as to the validity.  Am I right?

    And am I correct in assuming that three bishops do the consecration as a kind of "quality check" to ensure that the consecration is valid, even in traditional practice?  There is always the remote possibility, taking the Novus Ordo factor entirely out of the equation, that one of the bishops could have had an invalid baptism (the apocryphal story about the nanny who baptized a baby in milk "because he was just so sweet" comes to mind, never mind the question as to why a nanny would be baptizing a baby in the first place), could have some kind of internal reservation against conferring the sacrament, or what have you.

    My understanding is that there are three consecrators to show that the ceremony and the consecration of the new bishop are acts of the Church, and not of a single bishop alone.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: "Final Solution" on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #29 on: June 22, 2024, 07:50:38 PM »
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  • Same here and it's difficult with a baby. It's sad that at one time, all the small town rural parishes had a Latin Mass and if there was one technically where we live, it would be a 30-45 min drive which would be really nice. And you have to make sure you have a reliable vehicle and the bathroom breaks/gas add time.
    Well, it’s just me, no babies.  Sometimes I travel with my dogs because the host family has a fenced in area plus a kennel.  I buy gas in the US and carry extra 10 gal.  It’s crazy expensive in Canada.  I keep my vehicle in good shape.  I bring food and drink from home, never buy it out.  Dog food and water bowls, too.